Whats up with GM

I have only owned 1 GM product myself (although my das has owned several and my mom a few). It was a manual, and it and no tach. It was a total piece of crap.
After that I owned a Mazda.
Then a Civic that I took to 185,000 miles. Went to 120,000 miles before it had its first repair (torn CV joint boot). Before that, not a single repair. Fluids, filters, plugs, tires, wipers maybe a battery was all it took.
Next was a Camry, bought for my wife. 238,000 miles before we traded it in, ran like a top. First repair was not until a staggering 180,000 miles, knock sensor. Only two more repairs before we traded it in. The driver and then the passenger window motor went. 3 repairs in 238,000 miles. Never seen a "domestic" do that. Just filters, fluids, plugs, wipers, tires, and 3 or 4 batteries -- other than the 3 aforementioned repairs. Never broke down, never needed a tow truck. Oh, I will admit, the D light on the dash, when you were in drive, no longer light up. $1 part, HUGE labor to get in the dash. Didn't get it fixed. The P, R, 2, 3 & 4 lights all worked fine.
Oh, and it was made in the US. Just a better design and execution.

The Tundra had some early teething problems, but has largely straightened them out. Still it did better than most if not nearly all new model roll outs from the domestics. Think of it, totally new design, not a simple update, built in an all new factory, with an all new staff.

Spike << currently 2 Toyotas, one made here, 45,000 miles, no repairs (one update to the software, does that count?) one made in Japan, 75,000 miles, no repairs (did once have them adjust the strike plate on the driver's door at the 1st service, it was not quite right, does that count?), and that last one gets better mileage than my VFR...

 

My uncle has a dodge. he has had to fix someting like the starter. somewhere around 300k miles.

 

Did Toyota ever fix the folding tail gates on the Tundra? That right there is a huge mistake on their part. How on earth could they release a truck with such a crappy tail gate that it literally bends when a ATV is loaded? Yes, I have seen the results of this & there was seveal threads on both Ford & Toyota forums debating the subject.

The biggest faults with the Tundra, which is exactly why I will not buy one:

1) It is vomit inducing ugly, inside & out. The proportions are way off & it simply does not have clean flowing lines like a vehicle should. The dash is one of the worst I've ever seen in vehicle.

2) They do not offer a real extended cab. I want an extended cab with rear opening doors. What good is an extended cab if you can't get anything into the back seat. When I open the rear door on my Ford, it opens backward & there is no pillar in the way.

3) It is several thousand dollar more than an equivalent Chevy/Ford/Dodge.

4) It has the most advanced tech engine & trans in the game yet still gets far worse MPG than the Chevy/GMC with a 4 speed trans. Now that GM has FINALLY released the 6L80E trans, the 1/2 ton trucks will get about 22-23MPG hi-way. The Toyota has more HP, who cares? I don't need to be able to tow 10000lbs with a 1/2 ton truck. If I'm towing that much regularly, I'm getting a 3/4 ton diesel.

KC-10 FE out...
lane: :usa2:

 

Now I'm really stepping in it, debating with KC... But my father has owned two Tacomas (the Tundra was bigger than he needed), and loved both of them. The Tundra is an excellent alternative to the Big 3 full sizers.

I cannot speak to this problem, but I can say that I have not heard of it. Which generation Tundra is this? The early T100's (1995-1999)? The 2nd Gen (2000-2005, when it became the Tundra) or the current model (2006+)?

Toyota's goal here was to make something that stood out, and no, the styling is not for everyone. I agree that this is not the prettiest truck on the road, far from it as a matter of fact, but the interior is about as user friendly as any out there, and gets high marks for being "car-like".

Huh? The Tundra has two big cabs - the Double Cab (with full rear doors) and the Extended cab with rear swinging doors with no pillar...

...and in 5 years will be worth twice the "several thousands more" than an equivalent Chevy/Dodge/Ford (especially if any one of the three file for bankruptcy). In addition, the "fire sales" that the Big Three have had recently DIRECTLY AFFECT the resale value of the trucks. Toyotas hold their resale value much better than just about anything else out there. A Big Three pickup truck will be worth about half of it's MSRP in about 3 years.

From U.S. EPA Fuel Economy Ratings
2008 Toyota Tundra 4WD - 5.7 V8/6 spd Auto: 13/17 EPA rating
2008 Chevy K1500 4WD - 6.0 V8/4 spd Auto: 13/17 EPA rating
2009 Chevy K1500 4WD - 6.2 V8/6 spd Auto: 13/18 EPA rating
2009 Chevy K1500 4WD - 5.3 V8/6 spd Auto: 14/20 EPA rating
2008 Ford F-150 4WD - 5.4 V8/4 spd Auto: 13/17 EPA rating
2008 Dodge Ram 4WD - 5.7 V8/5 spd Auto: 13/17 EPA rating
2009 Dodge Ram 4WD - 5.7 V8/5 spd Auto: 13/18 EPA rating

So the new GM 6 speed tranny nets you 1 mpg city and 3 mpg on the highway. Not large enough of a difference to matter. The Tundra is about the same as everything else, and by no means "far worse" (actually the same as) the Chevy. And that's with the smaller 5.3 motor. The 6.2 (which is larger, than the Tundra's engine) has the same city and only ONE mpg better on the highway.

So the only thing we agree on is that it ain't pretty.

 

While I may not agree with what you say. Ill fight to the death your right to say it.

 

1) I don't give a crap about the last generation Tundra. It was a 7/8 scale vehicle. It was not even close to being in the same league as the "Big 3". It was a car with a big uncovered trunk.

2)
See? Forward opening doors.

3) I don't care one iota about EPA winder sticker ratings. My Ford is rated at 14C-19H. If I ever get over 16, I'm happy. In reality, GM's always get better mileage than the competition. My 91 was rated at 14C-18H. I routinely got 21 & broke 22 once.

4) No, the Tundra will not be worth more in a few years. If they can't sell them now, they sure as hell won't be able to ask more for them in the future. The Tundra is the first vehicle that Toyota is giving huge discounts on.

5) Tundra Design Flaw: NEVER Drive Your Tundra Tailgate Down! | tundraheadquarters.com
Toyota Tundra Tailgate Internal Memo | tundraheadquarters.com

These are from a Toyota Blog so I can't see anyone make that up.

6) I never said anything about the Tacoma. It has been the best small truck on the US market for well over 15 years.

KC-10 FE out...
lane: :usa2:

 

what is up with GM is that they SUCK at designing cars that are attractive. The reliability is nowhere near that of the Jap or German cars.

The fat cat officers of the CORP are bleeding hte company dry. Teh retirees are Bleeding the company dry.

When GM or FOrd have major issues over 100K miles they say "well what do you expect it had 100K on it" when a toyota has a major problem at 100+K miles they cal in a factory rep to figure out what went wrong. Families are strapped for cacsh and low total cost of ownership and reliablity are teh name of the game which is why Camry and Accord rule the roost in family sedans.

The truck market floated GM and FOrd for years but now Nissan is threatening Ford in that arena.. I think ist was a matter of Officers worrying more about there salaries and stock prices and not looking to the future of the comapny. why worry when you get a multi million dollar golden parachute even if you sucked at your job.



OK.... I'm READY..... FIRE AWAY.....

 

BitterPill is absolutely right except for one thing.

Nissan is in no way threatening Ford in the Truck market. Ford sells more truck in one month than Nissan in an entire year. Nissan is doing so poorly with the Titan that the next generation Titan, due in 2011, will be a Dodge Ram with Nissan clothes on it.

PickupTrucks.com: Update 2 - Money Matters Pushing Nissan To Replace 5.6 Liter V8 With HEMI In Next Titan

Nissan Titan - Jalopnik

Next-Gen Nissan Titan: That Thing Got a Hemi? - Auto Observer

KC-10 FE out...
lane: :usa2:

 

I expected a harsher retort, but here are my counterpoints:

1.) Yes, the 2nd Gen. Tundra was a 7/8 scale truck compared to American iron. The current version is certainly the same size as current American trucks.

2.) Wow. The new one does have forward opening doors. Stupid, especially since the 7/8th version has "normal" doors. Previous point withdrawn, score KC.

3.) I only chose to post EPA ratings, since it's comparing apples to apples. Your mileage may vary (always wanted to say that).

4.) It' been proven time and time again that a Toyota will hold it's resale value better versus pretty much anything else on the market. We're talking the used market here. Compare a 10 year old Tundra to a 10 year old GM/Ford/Dodge pickup, with identical options, and I would guarantee that based on a percentage of the original MSRP, the Toyota would come out WAYYY ahead of the big 3.

5.) Thanks for posting links to the Tundra tailgate issues. As far as it falling off, I think that's a very limited set of owners experiencing that issue. The tailgate buckling and falling apart sounds more like user error than anything else, but I will admit that it sounds like Toyota under-engineered the part.

6.) I only chose to divulge the points about my father's Tacomas because it lends creedence to my opinions about Toyota trucks

 

As far as what's up with GM - they are clueless.

When the market demanded more fuel efficient cars, they continued to introduce more "crossovers" and big trucks. 9 of the last 10 vehicles introduced were pointless niche vehicles, or brand-engineered cars nobody wanted. A Cadillac CTS wagon? Seriously?

When hybrid cars were taking off and making big bucks for Japanese manufacturers, what does GM do? Introduce a full-size hybrid pickup, and full-size hybrid SUV's. They even have an Escalade Hybrid. How stupid do you have to be? Where's the hybrid Cavalier?

They continually ignored warning signs of impending financial doom, and did nothing when the writing was actually on the wall. Financial insiders have been warning of a possible bankruptcy for GM for YEARS and it was only last week that the CEO considered it as a possibility.

And they have diluted every brand to the point of being insignificant. There have been 7 different vehicles based on the Chevy TrailBlazer platform since it was introduced. Currently, there are 4 vehicles on their monstrous Chevy CUV.

GM deserves every bit of what's coming to them - their own ignorance of the very market that they operate in proves this. I am ashamed that my government will probably bail them out, too, and the heads of the company will take a $400,000 spa retreat to celebrate.:ncb:

 

Personally....There is no domestic car i want.
Nuff said, if was to be shopping for a new car there is nothing in there line up i would be looking at.
At any price range or purpose.

(except the caravan, I'd buy one of those for a mini van)

 

you guys can argue all you want who makes the best truck. It wont change the fact that the big 3 need to start making better product if they want to survive, and come up with a viable business model instead of the one they have now. they continue to give massive discounts to fleet sales and when those fleet vehicles hit the second hand market they were sold at very low prices, that effects prices of non fleet vehicles.that effects what you and i would pay for a new vehicle.the government can throw as much money as they want @ them until they actually fix their business plan its money down the toilet. To keep saying we need to save them to keep our jobs is starting to grow old let them go broke so Toyota Honda or who ever can fix their problems. last i checked ford was trading @ less than 2$ GM 4.80 penny stocks compared to other car manufactures.

 

This is far more entertaining that politics since we can all talk about the topic from personal experience.
Toyota has done right by me many times. I trust the company.
I used to drive a Dodge Grand Caravan. By far the most reliable vehicle I've owned other than a Toyota. I ran it out to 199870 miles without a thing but the front brakes, water pump, and power steering reservoir . I wanted to make it over 200000 but I figured I didn't want to spend the $$ for inspection/registration. I paid $2300 for it drove it for 7 years and I don't have any regrets. I had a lot of good times in that van after I put a futon in the back. Giggety Giggety!

 

for the 2009 car guide, Consumer Reports has named the most reliable full sized truck as the 6 cy. Tundra