stage 3 air box mods

Discussion in 'Mechanics Garage' started by CandyRedRC46, Dec 16, 2012.

  1. tinkerinWstuff

    tinkerinWstuff Administrator Staff Member

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    Booze helps :)

    On the heat topic - I seem to remember some folks used to make a coffee can fuel cooler for the old muscle cars.

    I enjoyed the information on cams.
     
  2. 91talon

    91talon New Member

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  3. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Member

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    all good stuff. thanks norcal.
    on those adjustable cam sprockets from the link, how are those adjusted. it looks like you unbolt those turn slightly and bolt in the next hole.
    like the equivalent a skipping a tooth or two. i would think you would have to be more precise.
     
  4. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    You don't pull the bolts out, you loosen them and spin the gear, the hole has been machined into a slot so that you can move them a little bit at a time. That's how you do it but you're not moving it in teeth, it's more like degrees. It is a very precise setup, I was lucky enough to have someone show me how it's done during the initial setup with the engine out of my old machine, it isn't something I'd try without someone looking over my shoulder again.... It looked more like this:

    [​IMG]

    you can do it with the engine in the machine, it just happened to be out of the frame.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2013
  5. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    More like this, and it takes a little bit of patience to do it, as it's adhesive backed and the glue is very strong.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    just something to think about. The engine water temp is 185 degrees, the surface temperature of the engine is close to that, albeit lower. This heat will be absorbed to some degree by the,
    fuel tank and contents, fuel rails, throttle bodies, airbox, and the frame, creating a heat sink effect for everything inside the fairings. There isn't a lot of air that gets forced into the area between the cylinders when the machine is moving. I won't get into the radiator location..... All of this latent heat is transferred to the airbox, I've checked it and I can confirm the airbox is hot, on the exterior and interior. So every single bit of air that gets drawn into the airbox gets heated to a certain degree, it's not 100 degrees, because it doesn't stay in the airbox for long, however, it will change the temp of the incoming air that is being ingested by the throttle bodies. This is not optimum for making power, it also causes problems with the fuel mixture..ever notice how these machines seem to get really rich and have shitty partial throttle opening response when they get hot? That is partly due to the ECM, but it is also caused by latent heat, although to a lesser extent. After the heat shield was installed the inside of the airbox was 40+ degrees cooler than without it. This allows the fuel mixture to remain more consistent, this is beneficial for a multitude of reasons. Cooler fuel and a cooler overall mixture will be more dense, thus making more power. A cooler mixture will also help to keep the intake valves cooler, which helps with the longevity of the parts. All of this, coupled with the increase in fuel being added to the intake charge by utilizing the PC3 and because you freed the airbox from unnecessary obstructions like flappers and snorkels...makes more power....don't ask for a dyno sheet, I wouldn't show them to you anyway.

    Now, add in the more effective cam timing, free flowing airbox, cooler fuel, and a catless free flowing exhaust with internal ceramic coating and you will get a cooler (denser) fuel charge into the cylinder and the coated exhaust will allow the exhaust to be scavenged from the combustion chamber faster because containing the heat in the exhaust will increase the velocity of the exhaust gases. It all works together.

    I have wondered why people said it was waste to do very simple things, when the combination of these very simple things can have a dramatic effect. Even if you make 6-8% more power without taking the heads off the heads off....with an initial 100 hp output, that would equate to a gain of 6-8 HP...WITHOUT TAKING THE HEADS OFF. I think you're crazy NOT to do it. I will admit that it is a lot less work and a metric fuckton easier to just sit back belittling someone's efforts by saying it's a waste of time and doesn't do anything, but that would be far from the truth. This stuff does work, I've tested it and I know it does.... and most people are doing the expensive purchases of a pipe, air filter and a PC3 already. Spend the 2g, don't go the extra mile to pull it all together for another $250, and then say it doesn't work and isn't worth it. I know who ultimately wins that battle.

    Now think what you could do if you DID take the heads off, applied thermal barrier ceramic coatings to the exhaust tract, combustion chamber and the tops of the pistons, you would then have a faster and hotter burn of the fuel charge during the power stroke which also aids the overall efficiency....now, go one step further and clip the head (raising compression to aid the bottom end and snappiness), port and polish the head for maximized flow, cryo treat the reworked head to get all the nice metal grains de-stressed and lined back up, now, rehape and blend the combustion chambers of each head before you coat it and blend and smooth the tops of the pistons in the valve pocket area and coat those, install Kawasaki valve spring seats under the stock springs, thus adding more tension to the valve springs for even better combustion chamber sealing .......Now cryo treat the valve train and apply an oil shedding coating to the valve springs, cam caps and the cams, thus reducing parasitic drag. This also allows the oil to return to the oil cooler and oil pan faster, this, coupled with the lower exterior temperature of the ceramic coated exhaust next to the oil pan further cutting oil temperatures and you get another benefit, cooler parts equals longer service life. Now lets say you got another 10-12% gain from that escapade (depending on who does your porting, I know that is a conservative number, but only by a few percentage points)...that would make a total gain, from an initial 100HP, of 16 to 20hp......and thats nothing to sneeze at, and the engine will operate more efficiently and last longer! It's not a pipe dream, or snake oil, or requires being proven by a dyno chart, it WORKS. It's a well thought out PACKAGE of modifications with each mod helping the others. Sometimes people don't have the money to do things all at once, it's a tough world out there, but by wittling away with one mod at a time, it will make a difference.

    Holy wall of text, sorry, too lazy to fix it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2013
  6. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Member

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    i feel like in in thermodynamics again lol
     
  7. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Member

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    did you ever think of ignition timing?
    or overboring the cylinders 1mm and fitting with the cbr929 pistons? supposedly equating to 825cc's
     
  8. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    I thought about a lot of things, Shaving the flywheel, etc., etc. but I basically got bored with it, sold it, and moved on to something else. I still have drawings laying around somewhere for a cold air intake through a sleeve in the tank that would seal to the top of the airbox......maybe someday.... who the f%$k am I kidding, probably not....building a 120+ hp vfr engine is cool, but the weight of the bike is limiting, even with a supercharger it's still not for me. I really loved the project though........I'll finish my motard project and then move onto something more sportbike oriented......maybe a middleweight....nc30 or a cbr500r might be interesting....maybe something with more advanced electronics.....who knows what it will be.....I have started thinking about it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2013
  9. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    I went back and edited my post responding to your comment about the adjustable cam gears...had reading comprehension fail when I read it the first time......my bad.
     
  10. tinkerinWstuff

    tinkerinWstuff Administrator Staff Member

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    NCB - on the gear driven cams; I know we talked before that one of their big drawbacks is the inability to easily adjust valve timing. Of course, on the plus side, the valve gap inspections couldn't be any easier :) Last time I did an inspection, I remembered our conversation on the cam gears and looked at them a little harder. It appeared like the gears are pressed on? Did you ever do any learnin on how they were assembled and how a person would adjust them if they wanted to? Not anything I'd probably ever be interested in doing myself but real curious none the less.
     
  11. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    Candy Red's bike is a 6g, he doesn't have the same type of restraints that a 5g does. Never looked at the gear asembly on a 5g, never had a need to. There is a solution to most everything though, so I'm sure it could be sorted out...I'm also not sure on what the limitations would be for gear lash, if you were so inclined to deck the head, again, never had a need to look at it in detail. I bet you could figure out what HRC did to get around this, if you were willing to do the legwork. I chose the 6g to get around these issues. The stock gear driven cam gear sets are heavy and add a lot of parasitic drag to the valvetrain. I can see the need for such things if you're gonna be spinning the engine consistently past 14k rpms in a race application, but they never really made sense to me when the stock 6g engine with a cam chain can easily and accurately handle the same function. The engine that I built was tuned to reach it's max peak power at around 11k rpms and had overev capability of an additional 1000 rpm. The power output was basically flat for another 750 rpms, then fell off pretty quickly at 12.5k. I did this because the benefit of another 1.5 HP at around 12.5k wasn't worth the long term wear and tear on the parts. A flat torque curve was also part of the equation as this helps the suspension out and makes the bike easier to ride when hustling a big bike in tight corners. When out on my favorite roads it was able to handle 9-11k all day long without a whimper and without getting the least bit hot. The 6g chain driven valvetrain is apparently strong eough to handle a supercharger and a lot more than 120+ HP........I think the sound of the gears isn't worth the downside that the adverse effects cause to a modified street engine.

    That was my reasoning, but the short answer to your question is, no, I never took the time to figure it out......
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
  12. Mohawk

    Mohawk New Member

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    "this is where my modification list stands now) and a rapid bike module with proper dyno tune, then yes i believe that the snorkel and flapper WOULD in fact be holding back power"

    Well the Bio-Blade makes 124rwhp on pump gas with stock air box, no snorkel & no flapper with Pipercross filter.

    I'm toying with the idea of making a custom air box for mine. I already took the top off & added a grille from a standard filter to stop larger bits of dirt entering the air box. I also designed a Ramair scoop below the head stock & sealed the tank to the frame & back of the air box to created a sealed area that feeds the air box.

    Be interested in your dyno run with the new velocity stacks. I'm making some for my 5th gen to test.
     
  13. Mohawk

    Mohawk New Member

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    TW, the cam gears on the 5th gen are pressed onto the cam shafts, this is common on lots of bikes now. They can be removed & refitted, but its difficult to do accurately compared to a cam chain driven bike with slotted bolt holes. So you can do it, by doing all your cam measurements then marking the cam ends & having them pressed off then on with your new timing advance/retard settings.

    NCB, Honda made .2mm thinner head gasket for the RC45 & special pistons with raised areas to match voids in the head to up the compression ratio ! But as you know replacing pistons in the VFR800's is a complete engine strip job.
     
  14. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Member

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    so ive been reading about milling the head and adjusting the cam timing. am i correct in that when milling the head(s) it will alter your timing? that if you mill the head(s), you would have to also retime your cams, just to bring them back to baseline?

    i read that apparently the only mechanical difference between the fz1 and the r1 (of certain years) was the head gasket. and that the r1 had a thinner gasket and this raised compression from 11.4:1 to 11.8:1 and also it retarded the cam timing a couple degrees. and this is where all the tuning was done. (besides ignition and fuel mapping)

    its weird, i never took that into consideration, that moving the cylinder head closer or further away from the engine block would affect the timing of the cams. but i can see how it would now.
     
  15. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    After the initial break in and continuing over time, the tolerances change. Having to press and re-press the cam gears wouldn't be a viable option for a street machine if I was trying to figure out a way to do it. Not saying it's a dumb idea, but I would look for a better solution. Changing the pistons highlights the level of bullshit required just for the sound of some gear whirring around. It's a gimmick on a street machine.

    As for changing your valve timing after decking the head, you should have already started doing it if you were removing the emissions adding exhausts and more fuel. Even on a bone stock engine right out of the box, it is beneficial. As for compression ratio I went from 11.6:1 to 12.7:1 running premium pump gas and never had any indication of detonation. Decking the heads retards the cam timing......
     
  16. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    Waiting for VTEC to enter into the conversation.......
     
  17. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Member

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    haha i think we should hold off on the vtec discussion until there is absolutely nothing else left to talk about.
    so your compression was raised by pretty much just milling the head alone, right?
    how much is valve to piston interference an issue on the vtec engines?
     
  18. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Member

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    oh and another thing, have you never had an urge to get one of those extremely rare 2 brothers headers or any of the other limited run headers that they made back in the day? i kind of have my eye on a remus header right now, but im really unsure of if its worth it. i have a motad on her right now, but i doubt its really doing that much for me. i almost pulled the trigger on a two brothers a couple months ago, but $700 was really steep and then my stator/rr failed and i had to buy front and rear tires, so... well that never happened... lol
     
  19. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    A ceramic coated (inside and out) Motad is more than adequate. I wouldn't waste money on a Two Brothers or Remus. They aren't gonna do anything but cost you money that you could spend on getting your cam gears notched and the cam timing done. It's NOT the exhaust.

    When decking the head, the amount removed is thousandths, and there is no interference issue....unless you degree the cams wrong, rofl.

    The VTEC conversation is completely relevent to this discussion, but people look at it more of an us v. them argument as opposed to why it is beneficial. The Honda engineers must just shake their heads when they read what people write. I would have to say that 100% of the time, the forum arguments are missing the point.....
     
  20. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Member

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    What would be cool is to fully build the engine. Do everything that we've talked about thus far. Then disconnect the vtec solenoid. Set up a good fuel and timing map, record that dyno run. Then engage the vtec solenoid and then retune the engine for all four valves tuning from idle to redline and record that dyno run. Then find out where those two graphs intersect and have that be your vtec crossover point. You would have two have to separate maps though, that would switch with the vtec engagement points.

    None of that on at 6400 and off at 6100 crap. Just set it to come on only where it is exactly needed and beneficial. And maybe have it set to only come on at 100% throttle.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2016
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