Right or Wrong, The Moral Dilemma of PCIII maps

Johnnie5,
I am under the impression that for the power commander to function correctly and to keep the VFR's ECU from changing the mixture the O2 Sensors must be held constant so that the PCIII is not fighting with the ECU that is trying to control O2 levels which are indicative of unburnt fuel. so the ECU will keep richening the mixture until the O2 levels are right. I am pretty sure that the O2 eliminators are a requirement. Check with DynoJet at their Website. the products of combustion of gasoline (complex Hydrocarbon) and Air (20% O2 79%Nitrogen N2 should be CO2 and H2O) O2 in the exhaust gases means that there is not enough fuel to burn(convert) the oxygen. So your ECU will keep adding more fuel. I will say that from my own experience there is definitely a noticeable difference. She pulls smoother and stronger throughout RPM range and the VTEC transition is barely noticeable you hear it more than you feel it like you used to. I miss it a little it was like turbo boost to me.
Danimal
Dan Feinberg

 

I have the same set up on my '07 and have been running the staintune map. Did the custom map make a big difference? Was it worth the $? Thanks. Tim.

 

I think it did, and yes i think it was worth every penny. And when I get my Laptop home tomorrow I will download the map and send you a copy to try and get your opinion on it. My gift to you.

 

Danimal,
I appreciate your generosity and would gladly compensate you for it. I have debated whether to have one made or not. The closest "reputable" shop for me is in Tulsa, OK. Anyway, Thanks. Tim.

 

Something that nobody has mentioned is the shop that developed that map. Is it fair to copy their work and distribute it without compensation? Is there a copywrite issue?

I don't have answers to these questions but it seems analagous to downloading music in which if we do it enough there won't be anybody who can make any money producing the original work.

-Mark

 

Dan

Do you have O2 eliminators on your bike? The PowerCommander site mentions it would be needed on California and some overseas bikes.

Marco

 

MBricker,
developed the map? I don't think so. I bought the PCIII and I bought the VFR, and I paid Mike Cat's to put my bike on his dyno and create a custom map for me. A service he provides as a Dynojet distributor and tuner location... I aint no freakin lawyer but I will betcha pink slips, that that map belongs to me and I can do whatever I want with it.

Marco,
Yes I do have O2 eliminators on my bike.

 

Thanks Danimal!

 

Allow me to make an analogy here. If you went out and bought the new Rolling Stones or whoever CD, how would you feel if someone wrote you and ask you to burn them a copy for free?

The PCIII map the DynoJet tuner wrote for you is indeed your property. Is it your's to distribute to others? Hmmmmmmm, sounds like a gray copyright/intellectual property rights area to me. When you share a map like that, you're in a sense depriving the tuner of making a living because you have made it unecessary for someone else to seek out his services. If you did charge someone for the map, would you give part of that money to the guy who wrote the map originally?

If you wrote computer programs for a living (and that's all a PCIII map is), how would you feel if someone you wrote a program for either gave away copies of it or sold copies of it? That's why there's that FBI warning at the beginning of VCR and DVD movies. Check the fine print on a CD the next time you buy one. I bet you would find some similar wording.

Modern technology and modern morals/manners/actions haven't caught up with themselves yet.

We do know two facts for certain:

1. If it's on the internet it has to be true.
2. If it's on the internet than it has to be free.

Something to think about for all of us. I'd like to hear from the rest of the guys on this one.

 

Let's extend this little thread out some...

Who's compensated the webmaster for providing this great site. Bandwidth isn't free and either is the time involved (he could be doing something else). If you're of the opinion that favors should be compensated, then make sure you've donated or bought from the site store. If you're someone that believes that it's on the internet so it must be free, enjoy your time on the site guilt free.

I'd never ask for someone's custom mapping. It makes no sense, since the whole point is it's tuned to that bike and how it reacts. Subtle things like air temp, air pressure, fuel mixture (do you use reg or supreme), oil and air filter quality and so much more make each bike so unique that someone else's map wouldn't do me any good.

To come back to the main point of the original thread, if you offer it on a site like this as a "hey I got a custom map and if you want a copy I'll email it to you" then no compensation other than thank you should be expected. Now if someone is asking on the boards if people can send him their maps, then by all means, PM the guy and say, it cost me $$$ and if you feel it's worth it PayPal me $20-30 bucks.

I'm fairly old school and believe that you help a buddy out. If you're helping, then don't expect anything (except a possible thank you). If you're being helped, offer something as thanks; if they say no need, thank them even more and remember to do them a solid later on.

 

I trust you guys realize my two internet rules were said with a lot of humor and sarcasm.

I think BJ hit the nail square on the head.

 

I'm in the camp that what you're paying for is the equipment, time, and expertise of the tuner.

In the sports car worlds, custom maps don't get traded between cars (much). Because they don't work right on a different vehicle.

Take any two identical model/year/mileage/spec'd cars or bikes and toss them on a dyno. You're getting different (subtle, but different) results. The tune that works great for one can cause massive detonation and engine failure in another (this is especially true with turbo'd cars).

Fuel makes a huge difference, too. CaNvAz fuel is crap compared to the rest of the country (our 91 knocks long before the PacNorWest 91). A tune for PNW 91 may not be safe for cali fuel.

All that being said, using someone else's map is getting the benefit of the tuner's investment into equipment, and the time paid for by the donor of the map, without paying more to the tuner.

You need to look at the tuner's agreement with the original purchaser of the map. Is it a work for hire? or is it their work, with a license to you to use it? (much like an artist owns the song, the studio the recording of it, and you pay for a license to get to play it from the cd that you purchased).

As a software developer, if you pay me to write you a piece of software, and then you sell a copy of it to someone else, I'm going to be torqued off. Because *I'm* the one that put the time/expertise into it, and the price you got is based on just you using it. If you wanted to sell copies of it, I'd have charged you considerably more for it.

The cost of the map is both time, and investment into the capital for the equipment to make the tune (dyno's and tuning software are *not* cheap, or I'd own my own stuff for doing it ). Part of the cost of that tune (perhaps a significant portion of it) is the amortized cost of making that capital investment. The tuner may not have lost any money due to time, but he did fail to recoup on his investment. Whether or not this is a real loss is in the land of funny-money, but as someone that works with intellectual property for a living, I understand why tuner's don't like it when you resell, or give away for free, their maps.

It's their bottom line that it hurts, because while not everyone that gets a map on the side was actually going to pay for it, some would have paid the $300-600 for the tune if they had to, but instead just got a copy from a friend for free (or $25 or so).

I'm not going to say I'm perfect on this, but here's where I draw the line. If I can afford the real deal, and I was going to get the real deal, I'll spend the money. If the price was sufficient that I'd never actually pay for it myself, then I might pick up a copy on the side (this is with software). With music, I get mp3s from friends all the time, usually results in me buying the CD (often used, sometimes new) if I like it.

ECU maps? I'd either use free maps or use a custom tune. Going too lean and hitting hard detonation at 12K rpm on a bike is not something I'd like to do. It's bad enough in a car when the engine lunches a piston/valve, but on a bike, it's likely a hospital trip.

 

i'm so glad i have carbs on my old '97. don't need a computer to change jets.

but i partially agree with Red above: the map may be the intellectual property of the tuner who created it and not something YOU should be selling because you don't own it.......just my slant on the moral dilemma!

this is a great thread, however because it started lots of discussion!!
(image copyrigthted!)

 

hmmm....pay you for a map or pay a lot more to a tuner:decision:

i'll just get it off limewire for free.


kidding, i'm running carbs.

 

I wouldn't be adverse to that at all. Hey , if I needed that map and could bypass the time and expense of a tuner by sitting at my monitor and pressing a few buttons, why not shell out a couple bucks to defray costs, actually I'm just starting to mod now and if I do need that map I will offer. Ride on!

 

I have been following this thread with a lot of interest because in a sense it applies to me directly.

I own a civil engineering firm. We crank out tons of drawings a year for the various projects we engineer. It amazes me how many people in the world think because it is a computer file, it's free to share. I have realtors, developers, other engineers, etc call me all the time and say "Can you e-mail me over you computer files for job XYZ that you did a few years ago. Your client sold the project to my client and he wants me to design an addition." We tell them tactfully "No way."

This is our rationale (and we have gotten to the point we specifically put it in our contracts): The client is hiring us to design/engineer a project, produce plans, and obtain the permits. Whether we decide the methodology used is a room with 100 monks sitting over drawing boards or my 4 guys on computers is a decision I made. We still produce the same product. Therefore, we state specially in our contracts that all computer files remain the property of my engineering company.

When I hire a surveyor to survey a site, it is explicitly written into my contract with him that he will produce a computer file for me.

So how does this relate the concept of PCIII maps? Did you go to a DynoJet tuner and tell him you want him to write you a map for you to do with as you saw fit or did you tell him you felt your bike could run better and he made it run better by writing a new PCIII map?

On the other side of the coin, if you wrote the map yourself and tuned it by the seat of pants or taking it to a shop for dyno runs and then you post it on this site (or any other), you are implying that it is OK to download it without compensation. If you want to be compensated for it, it should be in the "For Sale" section. Also remember when you charge for something, the buyer wants to see something for his money. If you charge for a map and his bike runs worse, be prepared to give the person his money back.

I quit, my fingers are tired.