Riding Advice

Discussion in 'General VFR Discussions' started by jayzonk, Sep 27, 2015.

  1. jayzonk

    jayzonk New Member

    Country:
    Canada
    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    398
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London, Ontario, Canada
    Map
    I've been working on improving my cornering on the VFR by working my way through several tight-radius turns in one highway area near me. It's working pretty well - the curves aren't speed rated, but I would say they would be rated at 45 to 50mph if they were. I'm getting through them at 73mph to 78mph, depending on the circumstances, and I can see some future improvement as well.
    However, I had been planning on buying a used SV650 to use for development purposes in the corners (and keeping the vfr), and possibly on the track. I'm wondering if it would be still useful for me at this point, or if I should look at a CBR600 (or similar), or just keep working with the VFR. I just get the feeling that a CBR won't be right for me, as I would have to be in the 8000 - 10,000 rpm range to get the benefit of it, and I'm not sure I'm ready for that yet.
    Any thoughts?
    Also wanted to apologize to the local London riders that have been trying to get me out for a ride. With all of the kids at home, I basically go ride when I have an unplanned opportunity.
    Thanks,
    J
     
  2. jimbo2

    jimbo2 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2015
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Watch twist the wrist 2 on you tube. About an hour and a half long but a good watch.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
     
  3. Gator

    Gator Insider

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2012
    Messages:
    5,117
    Likes Received:
    766
    Trophy Points:
    143
    Location:
    Boynton Beach, FL
    Map
    What kind of tracks are around you? That is where you will learn at a much greater and safer pace. Smaller tighter technical tracks are great for the SV and CBR 600. They are great for learning trail; braking, corner entrance, apex, corner exit on such. Big tracks with higher speeds are better suited for 1k machines but you can run smaller bikes too. Whatever bike you get set up the suspension as best as your budget will allow and make sure your brakes are in top condition. Take some classes and get some tows from good control riders. A few times to the track is worth many years of street riding.
     
  4. Knight

    Knight New Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    Messages:
    1,187
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    USA
    Map
    Influenced by the books of Code, Condon and Pridmore, I am inclined to think that any sport bike, and even some cruisers can take turns on the road at clips faster than would be safe. If we become adept at the turning techniques, we can push these turns to their extreme:

    1) Identify the perfect turn in point. Early turn in or late turn in results in having to slow pre-turn or post turn to compensate for an incorrect line. Motorcyclists tend to lean too early. On doing a turn repeatedly, challenge your turn in point each time until you find the perfect point. Then after the road sweepers remove the garbage that you are using as a reference point, you may struggle to identify a reference point. :)

    2) Make the decision to lean and then lean the bike quickly. The longer we take from the lean start to the full lean, the lower our average speed is over the turn. The VFR will take more muscle and finesse the more quickly you lean it. The ride is a workout and if you find that you are pushing your body too hard, that would be a reason to get a more nimble bike. From comparisons I have read the SV650, while smaller and lighter, may not necessarily be more nimble. The Honda is a particularly balanced and sharp performing bike for its size. I was going to suggest a naked Honda 600 but I totally understand you not wanting to now deal with a different engine profile.

    3) Do you have plenty of pressure on the outside peg?

    The road is tough because we do not want to take full advantage of the lane, where we may butt up against the vehicle in the next lane. Also if we maximize our turning performance then we leave no room for compensation and may drift into traffic. So please be careful.

    Have you gone to the track? Only you can tell this, are you at a point where you are approaching the safety margin on the street? Consider doing track time where you can push your skills to their very limit, which is what you seem to want. A good deal on a used bike, any sport bike, will do you just fine at the track.

    None of this may be new to you, as I could not tell from your post. This is the type of stuff I peruse periodically:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racing_line

    https://www.google.com/search?q=mot...ved=0CAcQ_AUoAmoVChMI9KHt1J6cyAIVxyoeCh3qOgOi
     
  5. jayzonk

    jayzonk New Member

    Country:
    Canada
    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    398
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London, Ontario, Canada
    Map
    Hey, thanks for great points from everyone. There are so many points in here from everyone - picking the apex is something that I was still trying to figure out. I think that's my prime reason for hesitating into the corner. If I put a small cone in the corner to indicate where I'm going to bank, then I can aim for that, and push the bike over harder and faster. I did notice that the bike was a bit harder to push over than what I'm used to (Speed Triple), and I think I need to do the corners time and time again to make sure that I can actually get the right "feel" for it.
    Pressure on the outside peg is also something I hadn't considered, and I haven't been monitoring that. I would have thought that pushing on the outside peg would tend to make the bike stand up, but I guess that's not the case? Perhaps it keeps the back wheel tracking better?
     
  6. jayzonk

    jayzonk New Member

    Country:
    Canada
    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    398
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London, Ontario, Canada
    Map
    As for tracks, I'm about 45 minutes from Grand Bend. Is anyone familiar with that track? Maybe I could start there with the Speed Triple? Or would I be better off with something else? CBR300?
     
  7. Knight

    Knight New Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    Messages:
    1,187
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    USA
    Map
    Keith Code says weigh the outside peg. After reading your response I found some references to weighing the inside peg. I will comment on that in a second.

    First, the thing that peg weight does is that it lowers the center of gravity of the bike. The lower the COG, the more you may lean. Picture a biker from the front or behind view. Picture the peak of their head and follow its arch around the lean. The head is far away from the bike COG. Remember from high school physics: Take a weight, put it on a longer and longer lever (further from the fulcrum) and that same weight generates a larger moment the further it is from the fulcrum. The further your head and shoulders get to the asphalt, the more moment you create for flopping the bike on its side. How do you completely eliminate that moment? Weigh the opposite peg. You have returned the COG of the bike to a low height, at the center of the motorcycle. The bike/rider with a very low COG can now keep leaning over to an extreme lean, depending on speed.

    All of our weight, and pressuring the inside peg makes me think I am going right down to the asphalt and there is nothing to balance this out.

    Now the devil's advocate to the inside peg: The pegs are not that far apart width-wise. Thus if we measure the practical difference in moment from weighing the left peg versus weighing the right peg, it may actually not be that different. I suspect this is why some get away with saying weigh the inside peg. But wait, let us check our overall geometry during the turn:

    Get on your bike, plant your right foot on the ground, put a small effort onto the right handlebar like you are leaning right. Now put some pressure on the left peg. Can you feel the utter perfect balance of your body left to right? You are generating a nice line from your right hand, across your body, down to the left foot peg. Pushing the outside peg pushes back to your right side. Pushing your right hand is pushing back to the outside peg. You have just multiplied all of the body's force for the turn. You have developed a perfect balance left to right!

    You cannot do this sitting still but picture the imbalance of weighing the inside peg with pressure on the inside handlebar. UGH, all of your moment is pushing the bike on the right side. You are out of balance.

    Pushing the lean further, one gets off the seat, puts a knee down, the body is pushing hard against the wind, creating air pressure on the right of the bike, with less air pressure on the left. All of this generates even more tight turning forces, just like the curve of the wing of an airplane generates lift. Where are these people hanging off of the bike applying foot pressure? I am not sure, ask them. I would suspect the outer peg provides the balance for hanging off of the inner side of the bike, but I have not done this.

    You are correct that the outer peg aids in traction. The inner peg is what? Pushing the wheels out to a slide rather than down to the road. Again, given the pegs are not far apart, and we street riders are not pushing the bike to extremes, it may not matter practically speaking. But, remember how each peg affects our balance.

    Speed Triple? Ah yes, I can see how the VFR at first would seem lumbering compared to that bike. However, I suggest you go back out there, do your favorite turn, as you counter steer put pressure the outside peg. You will see some portion of your required effort outright evaporate.
     
  8. Knight

    Knight New Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    Messages:
    1,187
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    USA
    Map
    There is some YouTube video, I wish I recorded the name, which clearly illustrates the answer to engine size. I am at work so I cannot see YouTube due to the firewall. Maybe this is the name? CBR 1000 vs 125cc SCOOTER ! Racing on a track - YouTube

    In the video I am picturing, the large bikes blow through the straightaway, then the guy with the tiny engine hits the turns perfectly and passes them all on the curves. Then the liter bikes hits the throttle on the easy straightaway and pass him again. This cycle repeats for over and over. You will laugh at the big guys and cheer the little guy who actually knows what he is doing.

    Presuming you have a late model liter Triumph, a liter bike is generally frowned upon for the track. In terms of learning, one can make up too much for improper technique by twisting the throttle. More importantly the massive power is dangerous. A small accidental turn of the throttle during a hard lean and you can get into big trouble in a millisecond. Leave the liter bike for the pros.

    Some of the best track times are done on 600's. AKA the weight of the liter bike is a disadvantage in terms of leaning quickly. So a liter bike is not "better" for the track.

    I suspect what the experienced track guys here will tell you is that as a track novice, anything between a 250/300 and 600 will allow you to garner the full lessons and push yourself to the extreme.
     
  9. jayzonk

    jayzonk New Member

    Country:
    Canada
    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    398
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London, Ontario, Canada
    Map
    Okay, I've read and re-read this, and now I have a plan. I'll try the "balance" experiment with the handlebar and the outside peg, then I'll try it in practice. After one trip through the curves on the VFR, I was actually able to meet the speed I could go through on the Triple. Maybe that means that I can now push the Triple through a little faster. Will try on the weekend.
     
  10. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2007
    Messages:
    15,047
    Likes Received:
    52
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Grand Bend (no, I have not been there) has a shitload of references on just a simple Google search. All those books are good to great but ain't nothing like getting a tow through a corner by a dude that can really ride. Looks like a first class outfit.

    Getting busted by the likes of Randy doing 80 mph on your local roads might be more pricy than a trip to the track and some real lessons from dudes that can really ride.

    All this academia should be taken with a grain of salt. Great for theory and not so good in practice when the tires hit the tarmac.

    As an analogy, take your average dude who doesn't drive, load him up with books from the DMV, letting him absorb every crossed t and dotted i, then send him oot for the drivers test.. Good luck! Double that if the cage has a stick...;)
     
  11. jayzonk

    jayzonk New Member

    Country:
    Canada
    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    398
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London, Ontario, Canada
    Map
    Good point, but I think the handlebar/footpeg pressure will be something that I can feel and use.
    BTW, what is getting a tow? Do you just mean following another rider through the course, mimicking his riding line and body movements?
     
  12. Gator

    Gator Insider

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2012
    Messages:
    5,117
    Likes Received:
    766
    Trophy Points:
    143
    Location:
    Boynton Beach, FL
    Map
    Yes getting a tow is following a rider ahead of you. I would highly suggest you take classes at the track. The streets have a low tolerance for this type of learning and sometimes an expensive and or painful price.
     
  13. Gator

    Gator Insider

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2012
    Messages:
    5,117
    Likes Received:
    766
    Trophy Points:
    143
    Location:
    Boynton Beach, FL
    Map
    A new small bike that looks like a great track bike is the KTM 390.

    The more you hang off the bike the more you will have to weight the outside peg keeping the bike in a more upright profile and keeping a larger contact patch. With a good instructor giving you tows and spending some time back in the pits with you will get you riding better and faster than years of street riding. And the more you do this the less you will haul the mail on the streets. Thus helping all of us to keep our insurance rates lower by not having to pay for the hospital bills. Trees, cars gravel, cliffs deers........ Not much of this on a track designed for crashing.
     
  14. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2007
    Messages:
    15,047
    Likes Received:
    52
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Good thinking if the lesson is applied right. Bad habits when operating very fast machinery are hard to unlearn. They become muscle memory.

    Getting a tow is that, sort of.. mimicry implies intentional or unintentional comedy. More to aspiration of the provided model all of which might save scattering your bike and your dermis all over one of those grippy Canadian roads..

    I think you will find as this thread continues that the guys who have had some pro instruction are gonna say much the same as what you see so far.
     
  15. jayzonk

    jayzonk New Member

    Country:
    Canada
    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    398
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London, Ontario, Canada
    Map
    That's funny. I guess I'm in no position to "mimic" a pro rider on the track! I'd like to see SOMEONE make comedy out of sport bike track riding!!!
     
  16. Gator

    Gator Insider

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2012
    Messages:
    5,117
    Likes Received:
    766
    Trophy Points:
    143
    Location:
    Boynton Beach, FL
    Map
    Getting tows will help you tremendously. Especially braking and entry into a turn. If you get those 2 right your more than half way there. Real high speed straights to tight turns can be very intimidating. My home track has a monster straight (180+) leading to a 2nd gear Right. A friend who is a racer and instructor has slowly got me much deeper on the brakes than I ever would dare experimenting on my own. He says I can go at least a whole brake marker deeper but..... my sphincter won't let me. lol Track time, as much as you can afford. Ride, listen and learn. You will be surprised at how much you learn from just being in that environment.
     
  17. jayzonk

    jayzonk New Member

    Country:
    Canada
    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    398
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London, Ontario, Canada
    Map
    Is there a riding school near me? Canada or US....
    Mind you, we're getting late into the season.
     
  18. Gator

    Gator Insider

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2012
    Messages:
    5,117
    Likes Received:
    766
    Trophy Points:
    143
    Location:
    Boynton Beach, FL
    Map
    Almost any track will have instruction for novice classes. They may have school too.
     
  19. V4toTour

    V4toTour New Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2013
    Messages:
    1,339
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    38
    45-50 mph corners aren't "twisties" :potstir:
     
  20. Lint

    Lint Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    4,805
    Likes Received:
    948
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Simi Valley, Ca.
    Map
Related Topics

Share This Page