Not the Real '89 VFR -a mild custom

Of all the jobs in restoring an old bike, I had never before tried repairing ABS plastic and was about to undertake a very fast learning curve.
I quickly decided after feeble attempts "hot welding" the stuff that I had a lot to learn, so went seeking knowledge from Mr Google
I found someone using MEK (Methyl Ethyl Ketone) a solvent, to fuse the material together and it seemed easy enough that even I could do it.
A great solution, for me anyway - and with a bit of practice I even became good at it, and would recomend the process to anyone of reasonable skill
The photos following don't show anything like all the reairs, but settle on a very badly damaged belly pan, which had both holes in it - burned through by the exhaust no less. And in other areas the pan was badly distorted, once more because it had been seriously overheated - don't ask me how?
No "prior photos were taken unfortunately, but first pic. shows the front already with new cutouts applied and a piece of 3mm ABS sheet fused and clamped
to the outside awaiting an overnight cure.
Photo two is the reveal next morning with a rough up by sanding, just to tidy things a bit - but look at that distortion on the right side of the pan.
Following are a couple of the finished product, all straightened out with a heat gun, sanded, small touch up areas with "plastic bog" and all painted
I think you can see the difference in the shape - shown by the reflections in the paintwork. I am suitably pleased with the outcome
Every panel on the bike was busted, broken or holes in it and some mounting fixtures completely gone. Most would have said "Find another bike or fairing set" but I just fixed it all, learning as I went.
Before painting a SS perforated sheet was applied behind the "new" vents to keep out stones and debis, and the vents may now aid cooling down under?

 

Well. the VFR has been registered a couple of weeks now, on club plates which makes a big difference to the cost ($534 down to a little over $100 for the year) But it comes with limitations. Distance from home unless a a club registered ride is 30km radius, and then you must have a justifiable explanation - like service requiremens or such (no saying "I was just down to the coffe shop" (or pub.)
As a result of that and inclement weather I have only ridden about 500kms so far, but I can report they have been without incident, everything is running like clockwork - must be that VFR reputation? Oil level is still full, and no sign of smoke so dodged that bullet perhaps. My only concern at this point is the actual fuel consumption plus how much does the tank really hold?

Reseach says either 19 litres (5 gallons) or 17 lires (4.5 gallons). Whichever is probably irrelevent since my issue revolves aroung the fuel gauge and when the bike requires me to switch to reserve (caught me twice now).
I now top the tank off, record the kilometers travelled and at about 120 -130 kms, she will cut out unless I turn on reserve, after which I go straight to the nearest gas station and fill up. Seems all I can put in is about 9 litres when filled to the top -Why? Before putting fuel in I have peered into the depths of the tank and can see fuel, but it would seem well down, and short of having someone accompany me with a car and additional fuel I am at a loss for an answer.
When I first got the bike, someone told me the fuel gauge is notoriously inacurate But - when I fill it to the top the gauge reads full, and when it goes to reserve the gauge is indication this is about right. But 9 litres - what about the other 8 litres - are they still in the tank waiting for me to travel another 120kms?
Sure as hell doesn't look like it to me!
Exactly one week from today, I plan to ride with my motorcycle club (VJMC) on our annual ride to a central Queensland town called Monto, a round trip of about 1400km's for me from where I live. Surely I don't have to stop every 130km's and refuel - thats almost as bad as my H1 Kawasaki?
I know that so far, most of my ridding has been city stop -start, accelorate hard (having a little fun) but what sort of fuel consumption should I expect on country riding (perhaps "spirited" at times) but generally aound 100 km's /hour. (60miles/ hour)
Also, any thoughts about why the fuel goes on reserve with potentially up to 8 litres remaining?
Has the fuel pump maybe stopped working? (That just occured to me) - I shall check in the morning, doesn't seem logical but hey, what else is there?
If that is the issue why does switching to reserve appear to fix the problem?
So many questions..............

 

Checked the fuel pump - is working ok apparently (can feel and hear it with the sidecover off. I could not think why that may have been the problem anyway since the engine continued to run once switched to reserve.

 

That would be a very big reserve amount of fuel. Perhaps the internal piping for the "ON" circuit got manipulated at some point in its life and bent up.

Regarding the fuel gage, it is possible that it is being maxed out before the fuel tank is actually full. Perhaps try and stop at about 3/4 full and see where the gage sits.

VFR fuel gages (when working normally) are notoriously strange and pessimistic too. They will be full, or mostly full, forever and then start to plummet quickly. Like not linear, but parabolic in their action. Also, when I have started to feel panicky about where the needle is on my RC36s, there is still a pretty good amount of fuel remaining.

On my 86s, the time I go on reserve and when the fuel light comes on seems about right for what remains. 86/87 did not have a gage.

 

16L main + 4L reserve acc. to manual. I start looking for gas stations after 200km and rarely shift to reserve.

 

I went to see an old mate who buys and sells old bikes for a business yesterday, told him of my problem and he said it thought it a "worthy solution" to run a bottle of fuel system cleaner though with a tank full of fuel. So, bought one and tipped it into a full tank and went riding. Have done 153km's thus far and still not down to reserve on the gauge, but getting close, so maybe there was some wisdome in the advice?
At this point I would like to keep going until the engine cuts out, then drain the fuel though the reserve "setting" to find out what is left in reserve. No point sucking it out from above as this will not achieve knowledge of what fuel is available for the fuel pump.
As You say Captain, it is possible that over a long, hard life in the hands of some previous "butcher" something was done that altered the original alighnment of the pick-up tube(s) inside the tank. I had "cleaned" the tank internally using a molasses and water (4:1 brew) to remove corrosion during the rebuild process.
It is possible that I disturbed rust scale or whatever, and some of it may have become attached to the pick-up stainless-steel strainer causing partial blockage.
along similar lines, even just residue from stale fuel in the tank may have caused similar issues that molasses would not resolve. In any event it is a strange phenomina that I cannot explain with simple logic so will just continue the processand see what happens.
The long ride with the club next weekend is no place to experiment!

 

Have now completed approximately 2500km's since registration, over 1300km's in one long weekend ride, no breakdowns or problems during any ride.
I had to replace the clutch pushrod oil seal due to leaking oil; I thought I had done it when I replaced "all" the seals but missed this one apparently.
Earlier, I had an issue with the fuel gauge telling me it was close to reserve, and even stopped, causing me to switch to reserve once but after talking to an old friend about the issue - his solution - "Put some fuel system cleaner through with a tank of fuel." It worked, suddenly I now get 230km's from a tank of fuel and yet to have to turn reserve on, though I am still doing trials to find average fuel consumption and will extend this range further when I have more confidence. Meanwhile I head for a gas station about 230km's. (I'm too old to push a VFR very far) The problem must have been a blocked strainer on the tank pickup since the in-line filter is still clean?

 

I have travelled sufficient km's now to know the bike is doing 17.5km's / litre average, so will go comfortably 275km's without running out of gas.
I also established theres are 3 litres left in the tank after switching over to reserve. The only caution would be just how "spirited" the riding had been on that particular tank full in determining total range available.
My early concerns about rider comfort due to low bars and knees tucked up are proving unfounded so long as I can get a break every hour and a half. One ride had me stuck with a group for over 2 hours, which had me becoming seriously concerned for this ol' 78 y/o body, but I lived to talk about it, and by the next day was still able to ride. The VFR atracts plenty of favourable comment, and thumbs up from passing motorcyclists and that is it's own reward.
When ridding alone I tend to stay close to the speed limit and bikers will catch me up, slowly pass before powering away
Would I do it again? Apparently, as I am now about to finish an '86 pearl white VFR, which fortunately for me is in much better condition but needs a complete re-spray (and I have never sprayed "pearl" before) Oh well - it's only paint - what could possibly go wrong?

 

That photo was taken before the new discs arrived. They are now fitted, look nice (pattern per original or near enough -l0ts of small round holes.
However am having problems with vibration on low speed applications, really quite bad when almost stopped.
I fitted a dial gauge on that convenient mounting low down on the stanchion housing and checkec both sides for true, finding them to both have about 0.25mm of sideways deviation which I might have thought would just be taken up by the floating caliper. The deviation is over approximately 180 degrees from zero to maximum. I have checked the discs, no difference in thickness around their circumference and the mounting surfaces are clean of any paint or visible damage.
With the wheel out of the forks there is plenty of latteral free movement of the calipers, so definitely not seized, they were cleaned, painted, re-kitted with new pistons and seals, plus lubricated on the sliders before re-assambly.
It has me whacked for now, and despite people telling me "They will bed in" - no such joy so far.
Any thoughts that may solve the problem greatfully received

 

The runout seems a bit high, the service manual limit is 0.3mm. Can you check the runout of the disc mounting surfaces?

A slightly random suggestion is to take one disc off and rotate it 180 degrees; I recall (but not accurately) that if the drilling pattern aligns, you can get a vibration, but I could be making that up.

In terms of "bedding in" the only thing that does that is the surface of the pads conforming to the contour of the disc. Old pads take on the disc shape which can be a bit "dished" and so new pads will take a bit of use before they wear to a matching shape. But I don't think vibration would reduce unless the vibration is caused by a patch of corrosion on a disc that needs to be worn off.

 

I put rotors on the 92 from a different bike I had ridden and they were perfect. No grooves, no run out, no pulsing on the first bike. I had removed the rotors and I had them in my climate controlled shop. Installed them on the 92 and went for the first shake down ride after finishing the bike on a full refurb.

Pulsed, vibrated and shuddered under braking so bad I was convinced I installed the wrong rotors and these were bent. What the fuck?! Impossible. Verified, indeed these were the same perfect rotors.

Gave it some miles for everything to get used to each other with some decently hard braking. Nope. Zero improvement.

Went to a big empty parking lot, getting everything warmed up on the way. Did a bunch of hard accelerations followed by the very hardest braking possible. Multiple times.

Brakes felt absolutely perfect and have ever since. Still can't fully explain it. There was no corrosion or anomalies.

I typically clock any hole patterns or grooves so they are not the same on each side. Mostly so I don't get a rhythmic sound from the pads going across them. Can't say it makes a difference, I just do it.

Also, did you retain the fiber "washers" that install between the wheel and rotor?

 

These weren't new pads. The pads were used, but from the same rotors. I did swap positions to not accentuate any wear lines. That's why I gave everything time to bed into each other, and I could tell when they mostly did. But the pulsing never improved at all until the parking lot session.

I've never had brakes do that before. And I do a lot of parts swapping and pad rotating.

New pads definitely need bedding in and some temp cycles before HARD use. Or at least they used to?

 

Thanks all for your thoughts!!
No, I did not re-use the paper/ fiber washers behind the discs but did try to buy new ones only to be told by my Honda dealer "No such part"
If 0.3mm runout is max, 0.25mm is still within tolerance by my reconning, but unless it was original machining of the wheel, what else could cause this?

The idea that I need to do some real hard stops has got me to thinking:
All manufacturing is done within certain tolerances, even Honda when they built these bikes had tolerances for every part
If 0.3mm is Honda "Max runout" it is probably due to the available clearance within the caliper cutout in which the disc must operate
Keeping in mind that as pads wear, they increase this available space, and if the caliper floats as it should, this wear will be approximately even
But if some wise guy (like me) omits the fiber washer (due to dealer misinformation) things will already be offset when tolerances are at their tightest
Thus - perhaps - the disc is already too close to one side of the caliper and cannot "float" as it should!
And when Captain 80's did his "accelerated wear" procedure, he simply "made the space available without waiting for time to do the same thing"
And so
Come next week, I shall buy, find or steal some 0.5mm shims or fiber washers and what's the bet, this problem goes away?
Those "paper" washers that I discarded because they were coming apart did something after all, even if they weren't that thick
I just may still have some out in the shed to check thickness, there were a few that were still intact that I think I kept
Thanks all again - will let you know the outcome

 

Yes - I had 15 fiber washers collected from the 3 bikes I have dismantled - each measured approximately 0.5mm thick
Picked the best 12 and fitted them, 6 per side behind the discs
Took the bike out for a test ride and found a marked improvement in the vibration level
This "may" now improve with time, though in fairness, these washers are imperfect so new ones would have a better chance

A lesson learned for me - don't take the word of a "parts jocky" in such matters (the message was there for me in the prior fitment of washers)
So - I shall seek "new" washers (or shims) of a consistent 0.5mm thickness from another supply
And Thanks to Captain 80's for jogging my memory
I had wrongly assumed that the washers were likely something to do with stopping heat transfer, never considered alignment in the caliper
And I dare say that if I had the wheel mounting surface re-machined to remove the 0.25mm runout, it would be about perfect?

 

Anyone out there know the "real" reason for these brake rotor "shims" which in some circles are referred to as "damper washers"?
I have measured them (the ones that had not fallen to bits with age) and they all measure 0.5mm and appear to be cut from a fibrous type of gasket material.
This material is semi-hard, though not the same as a genuine fiber washer, rather more like gasket material.
Suggestions on various "knowledgeable" sights indicate they provide noise and vibration suppression. The former I can understand but vibration - how?
A tightly compressed piece of gasket material can't absorb movement in my reckoning so how does it suppress vibration?
Today I went back to my supplier of the new discs (which are true and flat) and asked about shims and the supply there of
His answer - "They can be purchased from CMSNL for US$4.07 each" (surely that is a pack of 12?) p/n 45128ME2003
I'm still working on that one for an answer

 

There may be a few good reasons such as compensation for thermal contraction between materials, or avoidance of galvanic corrosion on the wheel hub.

 

When properly torqued, they may act as a way to normalize the rotor to the wheel mounts. The rotors themselves might not actually have that much run out.

I have never really wrapped my brain around how they help, but they seem to.

Honda does not use them on solid mounted rear rotors.

 

They are available to order

SHIM, DAMPING
45128-ME2-003

But of course they are stupid expensive (each Skipper!) for a fiber shim. You could maybe order one to get the exact dimensions off of a brand new example.

 

There is a gasket manufacturer only a 20-minute ride from home, and they seem very obliging, so I intend to talk to them.

I shall take an intact sample and ask "Can you identify the material?" (assumed original Honda product is application specific - hence the high unit price)
I note of my local manufacturer that they have many exotic materials with data sheets available so they should be able to accommodate my needs
Added to that, I have two bikes, so 36 shims total required (landed cost for those from the Netherlands over AU$10 each, so must be worth a try!)
This local web site shows washers (shims?) cut in sizes similar to what I need so that may help my cause?
We know the material must be able to deal with heat plus a certain torque "crush", and probably be an insulator - what else to know?

Worth a try at very least! I'm in no great hurry and they may be able to punch these out when doing a viable order size for someone else, and if the price is right some spares to boot?
Can't is not in my vocabulary.