New 5th/6th/8th gen performance header now in production in USA

Discussion in 'Anything Goes' started by sfdownhill, Dec 29, 2018.

  1. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

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    FOR SALE - one Power Commander V, Dynojet part #16-005 for 1998-2009 Honda VFR800s. Like new, very little use. Produces dyno charts like this when installed on a 2001 5th gen VFR:

    [​IMG]





    Yesterday's dyno sessions ended up being very productive. At $775, It also cost quite a bit more than expected [See invoice below]. This will result in a $30/per header increase in cost for orders placed from here on out - meaning headers not deposited at this time will cost $790 plus shipping. We will honor original pricing of $760 plus shipping for each header on all orders for which deposits have already been received.



    The day started early, meeting with Jozef [lead dynamometer technician] in Attack Performance's impressive lobby at their Huntington Beach CA headquarters. The lobby has several of Attack's MotoGP and championship winning motorcycles on display.



    After going over our plan for the day with Jozef, OOTV and I set up our pits, unloaded the bike, and handed it over to the wizard. Jozef took the bike 'behind the curtain', as Attack's shop is off limits to customers. Here's where the first evidence of skimpy photo documentation surfaces - although Jozef snapped a shot of the 5th gen on the dyno with prominent Attack logos in evidence, I neglected to collect even a text of the photo. Massive thanks to VFRD member Hammerdrill for filling in with the much needed photos seen later in this post.



    The 5th gen test bike started the day with 59877 miles, Power Commander V with zero map, a new K&N air filter, new Denso iridium plugs, PAIR system disabled/removed, ~1000 miles on Mobil 1 oil/filter, a Two Brother Racing slipon muffler, and OEM Honda 1998/1999 headers installed.



    The dyno chart at the top of the post is from the first set of dyno runs. After recording these, Jozef brought the bike back out to us - something was definitely wrong. To keep this account of the conversation brief, I'll just recount that Jozef said he'd never seen a bike run this wonkily with a PCV. The erratic readings were the result of electrical interference of unknown origin. Group deduction arrived at the possibility that the problem could be with the speed wire tapped into the Power Commander V, so we disconnected it and Jozef took the bike back into his cave. No dice, Jozef got the same misfiring and erratic results. Back in our sumptuous VIP pit area, troubleshooting arrived at disconnecting the PCV, so we did.



    After disconnecting the PCV, the bike ran well and these baseline runs were the result:

    [​IMG]





    Having acquired a successful baseline and simultaneously possessing a fuel management system that consistently sent the test bike into a tizzy, it was vital to best martial our remaining time. This meant I would drive back to Vista and pick up the PCIIIUSB which had been strategically left at home, 70 miles away from Attack Performance. Can't blame the PCIIIUSB, it would have loved to have been on the first trip to Huntington Beach. Not even the PCV can be blamed...I had singlehandedly done all the forgetting. While I was gone from Attack, OOTV would change out the 98/99 headers for the prototype, Hammerdrill would take photos, and Jozef would continue building engines for Attack, then take a long lunch.



    OOTV did a stellar job getting the 98/99 headers off and the prototype header installed.

    [All photos courtesy of VFRD member Hammerdrill - thanks dude!]



    Special tools were required to disconnect the rear primaries:

    [​IMG]



    Who left these rings under my pillow?

    [​IMG]



    And here's how he stuck 'em into the exhaust port sleeves:

    [​IMG]



    This is one of the 42mm crush gaskets after being crushed by the prototype header. Note the space between the gasket's id and the port. [This is the photo I forgot to take on fitment day]:

    [​IMG]





    Gaskets in place. Look ma, no grease! They stay in place on their own:

    [​IMG]



    Prototype headers connected to a midpipe Wade built to fit the TBR canister.

    [​IMG]



    OOTV found a way to make a too-large T-bolt clamp fit onto the midpipe - note the spacer on the threads under the clamp's nut. Also note how frickin close the prototype came to the shock linkage. This would have been of concern if the bike wasn't on a rear stand when this photo was taken - the rear wheel was hanging at its maximum extension and still cleared the collector:

    [​IMG]



    The incredibly hard-working pit crew:

    [​IMG]







    After 'lunch', with PC3 and new prototype header installed [Connected to the same TBR canister used for the baseline] Jozef got down to business and completed an exhaustive [ouch again!] tune, resulting in the comparative graph below.



    The bottom trace Run File 10 is the baseline 107.5hp / 57.01ft/lbs

    The middle trace Run File 14 is the 'just slapped the headers on' with no tuning whatsoever 110.86hp / 57.82ft/lbs

    The top trace Run File 77 is the result of Jozef's careful tuning 114.74hp / 59.82ft/lbs

    [​IMG][​IMG]





    After the dust had settled, Jozef placed a midrange reference line at 8000rpm:

    [​IMG][​IMG]





    And the ugly:

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. RVFR

    RVFR Member

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    Wo ho ho, Good times huh ;) Way to stay the coarse.. Hot Damn, those are great numbers too. It's right there with the Two bros. Not to start a debate, what fuel did you use? Good job Guys.
     
  3. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

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    Thanks Jay! The petrol imbibed was Mobil 91 octane pump from the station across the street.

    Here's the bike on the dyno, ready to rumble. We were all surprised the coolant temp stayed between 170-180F throughout all the sessions. Even Jozef was expecting to see high temps with the side mounted radiators during power runs.
    upload_2019-1-29_19-39-41.jpeg
     
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  4. RVFR

    RVFR Member

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    ;) Yep, same here the engine never got much over 185 but then it was only 60ish outside, and he had dual fans blowing away. DSCF1164.JPG
     
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  5. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

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    We finished up a second phase of R&D Thursday - dyno testing of the header - prototype #2 - in the photos below at Attack Performance. All this means is that one well researched attempt to improve on header #1 only proved #1 to be better. Production continues w header #1 the original TBR replica as scheduled.

    I am driving out to Wade’s shop Tuesday to go over proper alignment of the collector exit, taking along 98/99 headers, TBR headers, a center stand, and maybe the fitment bike.

    Here is prototype #2:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]



    Based on (1) exhaust theory of keeping gas velocity high through the port by maintaining a slightly smaller diameter in the first few inches of the primaries, (2) Wade’s success with this concept on his dwarf car and Razr headers (3) Black Widow and Lextek’s use of this concept,

    we had Wade build a second prototype with smaller 35mm od for the first 3.5 inches starting at the exhaust port.



    The results are clear - header #1 we tested on Saturday Jan 26 is definitely better. This chart shows header #2 down a couple hp and ft/lbs across the entire range, especially in midrange[​IMG][​IMG]


    Note: Dynojet dynos/software correct temperature, humidity, and altitude to a standard density altitude. This means the software corrects to a standard the same way aviation performance calculations are made, ie “Can this aircraft generate enough power and lift to take off from this runway at this weight, altitude, temperature, and humidity?”

    Dynojet’s correction calcs are not perfect, and neither is my spelling, but they are better than nothing. Here is an uncorrected comparison of last Saturday’s run of header #1 against Thursday’s run of header #2:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  6. Voided76

    Voided76 New Member

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    Considering VFRD is still down,

    Are we moving the progress and updates over here?
     
  7. carlgustav

    carlgustav New Member

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    VFRD working fine (login, reading) for me this morning ...

    ACE
     
  8. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

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    Yep, vfrd is once again a fully armed and operational battle station.

    Updates:

    1 - We are waiting to hear back from Wade about how the production run is progressing - it's scheduled to be done this week.

    2 - This past weekend we fitted prototype headers to a 6 gen. We needed to trim 5/8" off the collector exit, then OEM 6 gen mufflers fit great. By early next week I will mount the now-trimmed prototype to my 5 gen to check fitment. I'll use an OEM muffler, TBR slipon, and Staintune [Using both support brackets on the Staintune to lock down positioning] to confirm that proper fitment is maintained on 5 gens after the 5/8" trim.

    3 - We have an 8 gen loaner in our sinister clutches. Monday OOTV mounted new tires while I installed speed bleeders and new brake/clutch actuation fluid to get acquainted with the 8 gen - neither of us have one [Yet]. We will be adapting one of the production run 5/6 gen headers [Without front primaries] to the 8th gen, then doing a baseline and dyno tune April 6.
     
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  9. Samuel

    Samuel Member

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    Thanks for your and OOTV's hard work, SF!
     
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  10. RVFR

    RVFR Member

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    All great news, this will be interesting in what comes about with the 8th gen, since it has a front mount radaitor. though noted the first round fittement go around sounds like it doesn't inculde those shenanigans. Good work guys.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
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  11. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

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    NO FRICKIN' WAY! When a project hits a couple of the 'just one more week' cycles, it raises one's eyebrow a bit. But here is physical molecular evidence of the cause of giant ____-eating grins on the faces of 22 VFR owners:

    Rows of cylinders 1-2 merges alongside rows of cylinders 3-4 merges:
    [​IMG][​IMG]


    And here is a set of production headers just the way we like our women...almost fully dressed: [​IMG]
     
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  12. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

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    I apologize for the delay in posting updates - OOTV has been responsibly reminding me that header related things are happening and those who have purchased headers or placed deposits have a right to know.

    The photos and brief details in this post will be supplemented with further information once I get to a peaceful place with a slower pace - the airport tomorrow.

    Shipping - OOTV and I discovered that the USPS Retail Ground shipping rates we quoted are only available in person in a US Post Office, after standing in line and filling out forms by hand. Luckily, he got busy with his corporate Fedex account and his careful cross-checking found that he can ship Fedex for about the same as the bargain basement price of USPS+insurance. With Fedex, specifying the package value establishes a coverage amount, so the headers shipped Fedex will be covered.

    First shipped headers received - VFRD member carlgustav received prototype 2 headers today and we traded texts on fitment to his 6 gen [Prototype 2 was constructed and tested in January] . His install is looking good, but will have to wait until after a family celebration this weekend.

    8 gen dyno day rescheduled - I made a mistake in thinking that the objective of last Friday's visit to Wade's shop was to produce a working 8 gen prototype. I was wrong - the actual objective was to fabricate a tacked-together 8 gen header from which Wade could build a jig, as he did with the original Two Brothers headers.

    5/6 gen production headers are paid for and have been picked up - we visited Wade last Friday, counted up the 22 headers with various bung configurations, paid for them, and loaded them up into the rig to bring then home:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]



    Second objective last Friday was check bung placement. Wade correctly observed that whether they were right or wrong, all the bungs were already done. Nevertheless, I test fit a 3-bung set of headers on our 5 gen fitment bike and all 3 bungs ended up their proper places. Here is the rear bung placement [Please pardon the accumulated rust and crud on the chain and center stand - this bike's rehab is off in the future a bit]:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]



    And here are the front two bungs:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  13. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

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    • Last night's snoozefest continued:

      5/6 gen production headers went to the passivators this week and will be ready to pick up end of next week. DucV4 and I have arranged to have a box-building and packing party as soon as we get the headers back, so shipping will take place April 22.

      8 gen headers are under construction - Wade says we will have a working example ready for final fitment and the dyno at the end of next week.

      The first objective on the 8 gen headers was to build a mockup set of headers from which he will build a jig [fixture] like the one he built around the original Two Brothers headers. This process was easier on the 8 gen than it was with the TBR, because the TBR were rare and sacrosanct - under no circumstances were they to be damaged. To build this mockup, Wade was free to cut, tack weld, sew, test fit, stitch back together, add length, change bends, etc. At his shop last Friday, he was making lots of sparks, loud metallic screeching sounds, and generating the smell of very hot metal all day [After disassembling the 8 gen, I hung around and kept busy with test fitting 5/6 gen headers to confirm bung placements].

      Item #1 on his list was installing the upper rear primaries, and right off the bat, spacing didn't look great; they were too far apart from each other, and they ran into hard parts of the 8 gen. Part of this turned out to be the thick OEM crush gaskets that I neglected to remove - the gaskets were pushing the new primaries out of alignment. Most of the problem was caused by two other fitment/engineering conflicts we ran into. First, the 8 gen rear primaries are of much smaller diameter tubing and cross over each other before turning downward to where they merge. The left rear primary of the new headers, with larger diameter tubing and no crossover, runs into the inner heat shield - this is the curved sheet metal piece that resides between the left rear primary and the shock absorber. On the 8 gen fitment bike, we temporarily removed this piece. Second, the brake hose from the ABS controller to the rear caliper comes into contact with the new headers. We temporarily removed a bolt that holds two hard brake line fittings together so we could scoot the hose over - without disconnecting - and install the new rear primaries.

      Refresher note:
      8 gen OEM left and right rear primaries merge with each other, and 8 gen OEM left and right front primaries merge with each other.

      5/6 gen OEM [and new performance headers] left front and left rear primaries merge with each other,

      5/6 gen OEM [and new performance headers] right rear and right front primaries merge with each other.

      Note the gussets Wade added here [and other places visible in other photos] to maintain spacing during assembly.

      [​IMG]

      [​IMG]


      Radiators off to start on the interesting part: crafting the front primaries. Here you can see the 'starter tubes' Wade made and installed into the front exhaust ports.
      [​IMG][​IMG]

      [​IMG]

      [​IMG]



      Note visegrips holding a spacer in place:

      [​IMG]

      The collector exit was somewhat less trouble.

      IMPORTANT NOTE: the 8 gen single OEM bung and O2 sensor are 12mm, not the 18mm fittings we've found with 5/6 gens and Bosch wideband sensors.

      [​IMG]


      Here is a nut tacked into the OEM bung location as placeholder:

      [​IMG]

      [​IMG]

      [​IMG]


      Everything was starting to look good, until we installed the fitment Staintune slipon and found it too far to the left, which meant the front end of the headers was misaligned. Think of the vertical sections of the rear primaries [at the slip joints] as the center of a pivot; if the rear of the the header assembly is too far to the left - and it was - the front section of the assembly needs to be cut and reformed to bring the rear into alignment. Wade doesn't get phased by adjustments like this, he just chops off the offending appendage and gets busy making his mockup correct. In this case, cutting off the front pirimaries and realigning them correctly pivoted the assembly around the rear primaries' slip joints and the whole assembly came into front-center-rear alignment.

      [​IMG]

      Somehow this pipe looks good on any bike.

      [​IMG]

      [​IMG]

      [​IMG]

      [​IMG]

      [​IMG]

      [​IMG]
     
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  14. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

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    DYNODAY II : V4 GOES VTECH!!



    This is VFRW member Hammerdrill's 6 gen. It has all these components in black: forks, rotor carriers, frame, OEM mufflers, swingarm, drive hub, footpegs, radiators, etc. In the middle it has Sebspeed's clutch cover, up top it has an 8 gen cockpit [bars and triple clamps] and deeply red R157 bodywork. All this black and gold pops with contrasting with pearl white wheels. I can't get enough of this bike. And it's not just a pretty face, it runs and handles great, as it is suspended by a full DMr suspension that Jamie built for Hammerdrill's weight and riding style, and has a Power Commander V smoothing out the fueling.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]



    So raises the eternal question - what next mod would benefit this motorcycle and keep us out of trouble for at least a short while?



    Answer: Put it on the dyno! Get a baseline, then put new headers on it and tune the living heck out of it. So we did.



    Wednesday April 10, we showed up at Attack Performance prepared. We had test fit the headers two weeks prior, and brought all the accoutrements we'd need to put the bike in Jozef's capable hands for baseline and tune.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]



    I've made myself late here, so will slam up dyno charts and try to explain my way out of the ticket later.

    [Who can figure out the lean spike in AFR between 10k and 10.5k rpm?]



    6 gen baseline with zero map in PCV compared to middle graph w new headers and zero map in PCV, compared to top graph after full tune:

    [​IMG]



    Here is the same comparison with a midrange reference line:

    [​IMG]



    Conditions on the day [All runs occurred same day]:

    [​IMG]





    Comparison of tuned 6 gen to tuned 5 gen, both tuned with the new headers:

    [​IMG]



    6 gen vs 5 gen conditions:

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Samuel

    Samuel Member

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    I got my bike back yesterday. Hoping to take it out tomorrow or Friday. Just wanted to say MUCHAS GRACIAS!! to SFDownhill and also to OOTV for all their hard work, dedication, patience, and attention to detail. It was a pleasure meeting and working through the process with SF and I'm looking forward to meeting up with him and OOTV for a ride someday! Crappy cell phone pic below, better pictures to follow...


    20190813_080144 sml.jpg
     
  16. RVFR

    RVFR Member

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    Very cool to see. Will be interesting to read your thoughts, have fun ;)
     
  17. OOTV

    OOTV Member

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  18. OOTV

    OOTV Member

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    Doing a bump for this thread as there is another production run that's starting to gain traction. Looks like we have at least 4 people who put their name on the list and 2 confirmed deposits, hopefully we'll have a couple more confirmed deposits later today or at least by the start of next week. The new minimum order is 6 not 15 as the initial build required.
     
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  19. Samuel

    Samuel Member

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    Great stuff OOTV! :D
     
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  20. OOTV

    OOTV Member

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    Doing another bump for these, we are 1 order away from getting the next build started...
     
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