Help needed. Front wheel/brake discs...

Discussion in '5th Generation 1998-2001' started by OnlyVfr, Mar 20, 2020.

  1. OnlyVfr

    OnlyVfr New Member

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    Hi,
    Got my wheels back from spraying today. Proceeded to install brake discs. Despite I marked bolts where they were before sending wheels for spray, they went in pretty tough. So I cleaned threads and threads on the bolts too. A bit better, probably old thread lock or something... Anyway, I wanted to use Honda manual and tight them to specified torque 23Nm... One NEW honda bolt snapped so I stopped tightening them... Now, I some how managed to drill through the bolt till edges of remaining bolt walls were skinny enough for tap. Firstly I tried M4 tap just to go slowly and get this fecker bit by bit. Then M5 and still thin wall of the snapped bolt still there. I tried 6mm x 1.0 tap ( final ), because I compared the bolt with it and used tap kit measurement kit to compare and threads matched.

    Now I have 2 problems:
    1 . Bits of remaining bolts are floating inside the wheel hub... I have changed bearings and dust seals too, however I do not remember if when you take bearings out, middle metal guide tube, is there way to reach "back of the" brake bolts? In other words can I fish it out that way? Or it is solid inside? I honestly do not remember and I did not pay attention to it.
    2. After using M6 x 1.0 tap, the original bolt is wobbly now...Just a bit, but I believe it should be very tight. Are vfr's brake disc bolts M5.5 or something?

    Thanks for help
     
  2. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    The wheel is hollow. Only use a thread chaser on previously cut threads. Too late now. Might be able to get it welded up, redrilled and tapped. Sorry.

    Typically, when those bolts snap, they snap where the head joins the shank, lifting the disc back off will allow you to take a pair of locking pliers and easily extract it. Bummer, sounds like it didn't go that way.
     
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  3. OnlyVfr

    OnlyVfr New Member

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    I will remove bearing to try fishing out bits of the old bolt. I always used tap to clean threads and it always worked:(. Anyway, today I did some tests. Drilled a hole in an aluminum block, used M6 x 1.0 ( like the brake disc bolts ) and tried the bolt, still loose. I tried M5 and too tight. It has to be some odd size. I did try different tap kits too, just in case mine is bad. I won't be welding it. If I have to I will use helicoil M6 kit, but the bolt is tight now , I won't just over tight it. Thread lock on all of them too. I will let you know next week where I stand. Thank you for your reply and help.
     
  4. jfrahm

    jfrahm New Member

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    Sounds like the bolt has stretched or something.
     
  5. OnlyVfr

    OnlyVfr New Member

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    Don't know man. I took bolts out and tested them with M5.5 1.0 threaded holes. I picked random 6 bolts ( I am getting new ones again ) and I tested on 23Nm setting, 4 snapped. I also tested different torque wrenches , between 4 bolts. I shouldn't have followed honda manual. Old bikers always say not to follow manual 100%;-)
     
  6. OOTV

    OOTV Member

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    Bolts are 6x17. I had one snap on me but like Norcal said, pulled the rotor off and was able to use pliers to pull the bolt out. Also had one snap off on a different wheel but was able to use a left hand drill bit and it spun the bolt right out.

    Here's a link to the Honda rotor bolt.
    https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/90106-MBB-000?ref=9a4cfa60df73bd034959c179d4098fdc84f4462d
     
  7. OnlyVfr

    OnlyVfr New Member

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    By M x 1.0 I meant thread not the length (1.0 thread). I have left hand drill bits and also bits for extracting bolts, but I applied thread lock and it was pretty tight too. Thank you for the link. I ordered new bolts yesterday. Just unlucky it snapped right inside :(
     
  8. hondaman219

    hondaman219 New Member

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    You are doing something wrong here. 23nm is about 17 lbft. I use a torque wrench often and I do not think 17lbft would break the bolts. Sorry this is late but you should have taken it to a professional as soon as it broke. Removing broken bolts is an art. It takes time to get good at it. In the long run it might be wiser. That's not to say I would have tried it myself too. 30 year ase master technician
     
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  9. 34468 Randy

    34468 Randy Secret Insider

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    I can't help but wonder if there was something wrong with the torque used too but I am not an experienced mechanic by ay means. I have read where it is not uncommon for a torque wrench to go out of calibration and that torque wrenches need to be calibrated regularly. It does not appear to be a difficult process. But for the torque wrench to be out of calibration enough to break these bolds, I doubt that argument.

    I have re and re rotors a couple times and have been fortunate enough that none of the bolts snapped or stripped. Now those of you who have been around a while may remember I did that not long after I bought my bike new, stripped the oil pan drain plug. Rookies! Just can't fix them. We have to learn from our own mistakes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2020
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  10. hondaman219

    hondaman219 New Member

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    Shit happens.....
    I hate broken or stripped bolts. Usually they break on removal. Which means they are old and rusty. Clean threads are a must for accurate torque. No taps on old threads. No oil unless specified. Torque to yield bolts get replaced every time. Use an accurate torque wrench. Yes I find it hard to believe your torque wrench is that far out but I have seen them fail. 17 lbft ft is no more than moderately tight with a std 3/8 ratchet. Worse thing to get is someone else's attempt to remove a bolt.
     
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  11. OnlyVfr

    OnlyVfr New Member

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    Hi,
    I removed plenty of broken bolts (I am not professional at it, but never had problem with it - until now :D XD), unfortunately this one snapped deep and had a thread lock on it so the job was extra difficult. Drilled it through with 2mm bit and was going size up slowly till it eventually dropped inside the hub after using first M5 tap and then M6 tap because M5 was pretty loose. Threads where ok, but wanted to clean from thread lock, but looks like it is more like M5.5... some odd size. I got very determined and got myself block of aluminum , drilled it, prepped with M6 tap, screwed original bolt in, and bolt is not tight at all. Then tried M5 , bolt would not go in, very strange, it is like size between M5 and M6. I also used 5 torque wrenches from different manufacturers, calibrated and checked against calibrating machines ( friend has a huge garage with all the tools I need ). All torque wrenches perfect. I am not very lucky to have a new bolt snapped and deep;-)
     
  12. OnlyVfr

    OnlyVfr New Member

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    Yes, checked torque wrench in the garage, and against other wrenches, it was perfect. I will be using helicoil on the loose bolt, that should solve my problem. Just a bit pissed off, because I am behind with time, other work on the bike, and this is pain in the hole too:D
     
  13. hondaman219

    hondaman219 New Member

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    I'm not saying you did anything different than I would have. Just sucks breaking bolts. FYI GM has a recall on certain 2020 trucks to replace all 8 caliper bolts due to some not being heat treated properly. Bad bolts happen too.
     
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  14. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    14-15 lb ft is a typical torque for these bolts. The problems with using a torque wrench come into play when you're trying torque to the lowest or highest end of the range of the wrench. Most 3/8" torque wrenches start at 15 lb ft. This can lead to problems. For this, I have always used a 1/4" drive torque wrench and converted the number to inch pounds, this puts the adjustment of the wrench within a better window of the adjustment range of the wrench. When using thread locker, you really just need to tighten the bolts evenly. An experienced hand on a normal ratchet is typically more than adequate.
     
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  15. OnlyVfr

    OnlyVfr New Member

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    I bought more of those bolts from honda now just in case they brake OR I brake them;-). Either I had bad bolt, or torque wrench did not work at that time and worked on other bolts, that could happen too, so I cannot exclude my new torque wrench out of this for sure. 23Nm - I thought it was very little to break a bolt!
     
  16. OnlyVfr

    OnlyVfr New Member

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    Thank you for your advice. Yes,I have 1/4 wrench , 5 to 25Nm, and lb-ft markings on the opposite side of the handle so you can see both. 23Nm is very close to 25Nm, so your explanation makes good sense!
     
  17. 34468 Randy

    34468 Randy Secret Insider

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    Great input NCB. Certainly makes sense. Thanks
     
  18. OnlyVfr

    OnlyVfr New Member

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    Right lads. I ended up using helicoil and it is way better now. Bolt not as loose as it was before, and now can tight it up well. I did not give a s... about the thread after I decided to use helicoil , so I set my wrench to 7Nm and tried to turn that bolt before fixing it, and hoped to go up by 2Nm each step to see what happens. I destroyed the thread before it reached 7Nm:) So, drilled it through, used M6 helicoil, and tightened it up no problems. I also took bearing out to fish out all bits of metal and other crap. Thank you for your input and I agree with your opinions that I should not used M6 tap on already made thread even if it is M6. I used to do it all the time to clean threads and it worked, but not this time, so I will stop using this method in the future. Thanks again!
     
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