Error code 27

So on my way home today the FI light came on when I transitioned to VTEC for the first time, and then three more times when I shut off the engine to clear the light. When I got home and turned off the engine the FI light blinked 27. So there, lucky me. Let it sit for a while and then took it for another ride, again FI right after the VTEC valves come on and then the VTEC valves shut off and wont come back on. In the driveway, same thing, VTEC comes on for a moment and then you can hear the solenoid *click* off and then the FI light comes back on.

So I'm hoping it's just the connector, but looking at the service manual the connector is beneath the throttle bodies? Do I need to take the tank/airbox/throttles off on the off chance that the connection is weak?

 

Yes, all of that will have to come off, it's quite deep in the v of the block.

As far as I know there is only a positive wire feed and the earth is the sealing face to the block. So if it isn't the connector it could be a bad earth due to oxidation.

I will be interested to hear how you get on.

 

Alright, I'm psyching myself up for this. Is there any guide to removing the throttle bodies on the forum?

 

It's not that bad. Just take pictures as you go, and label the hoses with tape. I've left all the fuel lines in place,removed the throttle cable, and hung the throttle bodies down by the foot pegs. You may want to consider replacing the thermostat while your in there. Take your time, our weather is going to be crap for a week or two anyway. Good luck.

 

One more question before I (hopefully) get into it tomorrow. The service manual says to check the connector by disconnecting the solenoid connector, looking it over, reconnecting it and then turning the key on and watching the MIL light for flashing. The problem is that my MIL light doesn't flash after the ignition's been cycled. It turns on after the valves have activated for a second or so, and will flash when I put the side stand down. But after I kill the engine there doesn't seem to be any memory of it. So if the MIL light doesn't flash now, it's likely not going to flash after I pull apart the connection and put it back together. It seems to me like I'm going to have to put everything back together, warm the engine up and just activate VTEC to see if the MIL lights up again. Although I suppose I can do the solenoid test and continuity tests before I put things back together.

Am I missing something? Am I over thinking this? It just seems like they expect you to test the first connector and if the MIL light doesn't blink then pack up and assume it's fixed, which in my case it wouldn't be, unless I'm reading something wrong.

 

Did you also try the Jumper MIL code access route which is described at 1min 50seconds onwards in the video in Post #3?


SkiMad

 

Yeah, I just did that this morning and Error 27 is in memory, and is the only code in memory. Maybe the fact that I'm not getting Error 27 when the key is on is just evidence that it can't be the connection, and if it was the MIL light would flash before starting the engine. If that's the case then it's likely some intermittent solenoid failure. I'll probably find out when I'm able to put 12V to the solenoid manually.

 

Alright, I officially hate hoses and electrical connections, but I got everything off and did a few tests.

With the Solenoid connector DISCONNECTED, the MIL light blinked out Error 27 (Among plenty of others)
With the Solenoid connector RECONNECTED, the MIL light did NOT blink out Error 27.
When applying 12V directly to the connector, I hear clicking:
[video=youtube;67c_TTBno5k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67c_TTBno5k[/video]
At least I'm pretty sure that's what that is.
I didn't bother testing continuity from ECU to solenoid, since it's obviously detecting the circuit, since the MIL light doesn't blink when it's connected.

So now what? Put it back together? Hope for the best?

 

Typically the process is

Read the codes(write them down).
Then clear the codes.
Investigate and hopefully resolve the problems identified by the codes.
When you think you have dealt with the problem, reconnect enough to check for any new MIL codes.
If all clear - fully reinstate - and maybe make a final check for codes once it is all back together - just in case ...

It sounds like you are on the final step so I hope it is all good.



SkiMad

 

Well, bike's back together, it runs. But I still get Error 27 when I let the VTEC engage for more than a second or so...

I did forget to mention that the first time I got this error, at the beginning of the the same ride, I started it, put it in first gear and it immediately started stumbling and dropping it's idle. This is a chronic but rarely occurring issue I've had since the first day I got the bike, maybe once in 50 rides it'll happen. Most of the time I kill and restart the engine and everything's fine, but the first time I got Error 27 I just decided to see if I could ride through it. Anyway, maybe they're related, maybe not. The only other thing the service manual says could be at issue here is the ECM, and the stumbling sound like it could also be ECM related...maybe. I dunno, might be a stretch.

I guess its Honda's turn to have at the problem... unfortunately my local dealer is booked till early June.

 

Is there any other reason that the ECM would stop VTEC? Could the ECM detect if a valve doesn't open and stop the VTEC? If say a slide pin was stuck, or valve was out of adjustment enough to not engage the with the VTEC bucket?

I mean, I can do a hard pull up to redline with the engine on full song, and shift before the FI light comes on and drops me back to two valves... It's frustrating.

 

Clutching at straws here... Maybe it is a load related issue with the solenoid? Let's say there is a fault with the windings such as degraded insulation. When you apply load with no temperature (engine off) it works fine as per your test. When running at temperature the solenoid actuates but then with the thermal loading and a lengthy pulse of current you get coil to coil shorts, v-tec deactivates and the code flashes up. Speculative...something to consider.

 

I ordered a used ECM to try and if that doesn't fix the problem this is definitely something I'll consider. Don't suppose anyone knows how much a VTEC solenoid costs? ETA on the ECM is May 8th, hopefully I can return it if it doesn't fix my issue... Ebay page said "hassle free returns".

 

Got the new/used ECM, plugged it in, warmed the bike up, activated ran it up to 7000rpm, same shit.

So according to the service manual I've eliminated everything at this point, but still have the problem, although now I'm leaning back towards a solenoid issue.

 

I replaced the air filter a moment ago as well, as the old one was probably 13yrs old and FILTHY. Also no change, though unsurprising.

 

So I'm ordering a new solenoid for the next time I take the throttle bodies off. According to the parts guy at my local Honda shop the solenoid is sold only with the rest of the spool valve assembly!? Seems crazy...

 

Sounds very sensible. I will be interested to hear if it solves the issue. Images of the strip down would be good.

 

The strip down isn't that difficult now that I know all the hoses and connectors to remove. I mostly followed the VTEC valve adjustment guide to get the tank and airbox off http://members.home.nl/jfknippels/valve_overview.html, then I mostly just figured out how to get the throttles off myself. But if you want I can try and document it.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean the entire strip down. I just meant the removal of the Vtec solenoid/spool, it's condition and any evidence of corrosion on the sealing faces.

 

Alright, got the parts, got some time, did the deed. Result: Success.

So here's the quick and dirty.

I stripped the throttles off which left me here:


So there was that giant coolant hose in the way, so I pulled it off from the thermostat housing and stuffed a plastic bag into the nipple to keep the coolant at bay. And then some miscellaneous sensor to the left I also unplugged.


Then just 3 simple bolts to pull off the entire spool valve/solenoid assembly, lots of room to remove it.


Interface looked good. I prepped the new assembly with a fresh and oiled o-ring/filter and installed it. No torque specs for the bolts, just "tighten 3 bolts securely", so I tightened them securely, careful not to strip them.


I then checked with 12V to hear the solenoid fire and verify the ground was good (I meant to get a video to compare the sound, but I forgot). This time I also checked the connection to the ECM. The 2009 service manual has a misleading diagram for the ECM connector, at least for my 2002 (did it change?). It looks like you should be testing the G/Y wire on the right side of the connector, but actually need to test the G/Y on the left (It's difficult to get a good connection with your multimeter leads on both connectors at the same time without help. That compounded with not knowing exactly which pin to test made me take like 20 tries to get a winning combination). Then after verifying good connection to the ECM I also checked error codes with the solenoid unplugged and plugged in, double checking that the error code existed without plugging it in, and then disappeared after plugging it in.

Then I reassembled, cleared in-memory error codes, warmed it up the driveway, tried it and PHEWF, it works. Afterwards I did an oil change and then took it for a ride to put the spool valve through its paces. Man, it feels like a whole new bike after riding it for a month in exclusively 2 valve mode. Forgot how nice it is when its lungs are working, it feels and sounds like the bike I test drove and decided to buy. I'm back to appreciating the bike instead of shaking my fist at its complexity.

Hope no one else has this intermittent solenoid failure bullshit. The service manual procedure really doesn't consider the possibility.

Also, I feel stupid for not replacing the thermostat at the same time. The only reason I'm not mad at myself is that my first daughter was just born Saturday, so I didn't really have a pile of time, and draining the coolant just would've made it more stressful than it needed to be. But I'm due for a coolant flush anyway and my thermostat doesn't close all the way, blah blah blah. I guess I'm getting good at stripping down past the throttles anyway, next time should be faster. Anyone else doing this, perfect time to replace the $25 thermostat.

Raise your hand if you have any questions.