Dies at stops.

Discussion in 'Mechanics Garage' started by Ronnie O, Apr 1, 2017.

  1. 34468 Randy

    34468 Randy Secret Insider

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    My issues are the exact opposite right now. When cold, starting in first gear starting in traffic, it wants to launch me by suddenly revving up to 5K RPM. Once it has done this a couple times, it settles down and runs fine. Bike is in the shop right now. I am at a loss as to why mine does what it does. I have an 06 with 209,000 km (130+K miles)

    Hope you find a cause and solution.
     
  2. Terry Smith

    Terry Smith Member

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    I'll take a stab and say that Randy's issue is caused by the wax unit being both clogged (hoses and/or the unit) and misadjusted on the starter plate, and Ronnie's issue is an old battery. Of course this is pure speculation, this is the internet after all.
     
  3. 34468 Randy

    34468 Randy Secret Insider

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    Brand new Wax sending unit was put on two weeks ago. But they are testing that too. Never know if you get a faulty unit. I have just got to the point that I am not going to spend my money on things that "may" be the issue only ending up finding out it what I spent money on was working fine and I needed to keep looking. So into the shop it went.
     
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  4. Ronnie O

    Ronnie O New Member

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  5. Ronnie O

    Ronnie O New Member

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    Well I think it was just the idle speed being set too low.
    I turned it up to around 1300 warmed up.
    I've never had a bike do that before. Usually if it idles sometimes it will not die other times. It goes to show you can always learn something new.
    I've ridden about a week to work 16 miles a day with a few stops and hasn't died yet.
    I'll keep my fingers crossed and hope that was an easy fix!
    Thanks for your tips.
    Next I want to see if I'm running too hot.
    Do you guys think the snorkel removal and flapper mods are worth the effort?
     
  6. Diving Pete

    Diving Pete Member

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    It's unlikely to be running hot if the fan isn't running and the temp is under 230... lol
    These bikes run hot as normal.

    & unless you just want more intake noise then no.
     
  7. Ronnie O

    Ronnie O New Member

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    Hello again everyone.
    Long time since last reply. Well I was splitting lanes in like 90 ° temp last summer and the temp was getting up in the 240 range.
    The bike started dying when slowing for stops. Then it finally wouldn't restart. I thought I blew the eng. ! Anyway after cooling it down and getting a jump it started rt. up and I rode it home with no issues.
    After changing the battery I've had no problems with it dying when slowing down. Looks like it was just the battery. Guess without a good battery to complete the system it just dies.
    Thanks for all your imput.
    I now have another vfr,a 99 in my stable. It was rough but I've tuned it and it runs great! It has 51k miles. It was a workhorse commuter. I saved it from a loveless relationship. I just did a valve adjust. Sure nice having gear driven cams. Much easier to time and put back together without chains.
    Thanks again.
     
  8. Ronnie O

    Ronnie O New Member

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    Hello again. Well I thought the battery was having issues as to why it was dying when pulling in the clutch slowing to a stop as one responder had stated.
    I had my doubts as the battery always stated the bike fine. I need to put a meter on it and do a load test etc.
    I was pretty sure that the battery could be the problem because after not riding the bike through the winter with a trickle on it when I went for my first ride of the season it died after the 2nd stop. After riding for awhile I stopped. When I restarted the bike it would die just revving the engine when the rpms dropped back to idle. On the ride it died just slowing down for a car that looked like he might pull into my lane. I was able to pop the clutch and restart with a skid.
    I charged the battery with a bigger 1.25 amp charger (battery tender ), it took like 6 hrs to come up to a full charge. It is much better,I don't think it died since.

    I also thought about syncing the starter valves/ bodies. They looked to be way off. I also found a cracked hose to the valve that goes to the flapper valve which was creating an air leak.
    That may also contribute to the problem as the revs seemed to drop too low before (before coming back up to idle). It doesn't drop so low now.
    A side issue happened when syncing the throttle bodies. One was way off. When trying to sync them the left front sucked mercury through the gauge and into the eng. I've used this gauge numerous times and never had this happen before.
    After 3 tries I gave up and had fun getting most of the mercury out from sitting on the valves.
    It starts and runs fine. I've yet to ride it. I will post back later.
    I've lost faith in my gauges and will probably try the dial type.
    Has anyone ever experienced this and can recommend a good gauge set. I'm looking at the Chinese ones on ebay.
    Thanks in advance.
     
  9. Ronnie O

    Ronnie O New Member

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    Maybe because I was just turning the synchronizing hex screw adjusters instead of pulling them out and them turning? I think it was just sucking it up on its own.
    Weird huh?
     
  10. Ronnie O

    Ronnie O New Member

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    One side note: I used this gauge on my 99 with no issues.
    The bike I'm having an issue with is a 06. Fundamentally the same.
    Also anyone have any tips on getting the air gaps out of the tubes?
    Thanks.
     
  11. Ronnie O

    Ronnie O New Member

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    If you're still wondering I think that it was either or a battery low on charge and I also found an air suction line cracked where it connects to a air valve that connects to the flapper valve.
     
  12. Ronnie O

    Ronnie O New Member

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    Well I finally checked my voltages. After a ride 13.6 volts key off. Key on dropped to 12.27 steady. Starting load down to 10.5 then rt back up to 13.6 after it started and climbed to 13 8 to 13.9 max. Steady at 13.8 running revving it up didn't raise it much still around 13.8.
    One time revving it higher up it died when the revs came back to idle.
    Seems to dip too low after revving before settling back to idle at around 1200 to 1300 rpm

    Which leads me to think that sync is off or slight air leak? It does run good and always starts easy. I will try to resync. the starter valves with a different gauge.
    Thanks for any info.
     
  13. GreginDenver

    GreginDenver New Member

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    The Honda PGM-FI ECU on the VFR800 uses two different methods to control fueling:

    Method #1: At closed-throttle and at small throttle opening (small Throttle Position Sensor "TPS" angles reported to the PGM-FI ECU) the controlling parameter for fueling is the Manifold Absolute Pressure "MAP" Sensor which is mounted on the rear corner of the bike's airbox and connected by a vacuum tube to the intake manifold.

    Method #2: From medium to wide-open throttle opening (medium to large Throttle Position Sensor "TPS" angles reported to the PGM-FI ECU) the controlling parameter for fueling is the Throttle Position Sensor angle (a method known as "Alpha-N" in the fuel injection world).

    The problem you describe sounds like the ECU is having trouble with fueling when it's using the MAP sensor as the controlling parameter (throttle closed or very small throttle opening). Maybe something is affecting your bike's MAP sensor? Maybe the vacuum line for the MAP sensor is broken/cracked/leaky?
     
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  14. Ronnie O

    Ronnie O New Member

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    Interesting.
    So if the hoses are good it sounds like it could be the map sensor. I'll look into that. Is there a way to test it? I'll look in the manual.

    As far as the mercury getting sucked into the engine, I found that one of the glass?tubes has small cracks in it and that is the one that was letting the mercury rise too high.

    It hasn't died lately. The battery looks good as I tested voltage sitting with lights on, starting and running. 12.5 drop to 10.5 starting and up to 13.8 running.

    I've learned a trick to prevent dying. I pull in the clutch slowly. It seems more likely to die if I'm in a higher gear and pull in the clutch normally. But it hasn't died lately.
    I ordered a nice sync gauge (sync pro?) and will resync. it.
    Wonder if removing the pair valve will help? Looks like it's a popular mod. But may not be necessary because it does run good. Wonder If the K&N air filter could have anything to do with it? Probably not.
    It does have a nice intake sound especially when the vtec kicks in!
    Thanks for the info.
     
  15. Ronnie O

    Ronnie O New Member

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  16. Ronnie O

    Ronnie O New Member

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    Thanks for the info. I'll definitely look into that map sensor.
    Is there a way to test it? I'll look in the manual.
    As far as the mercury from my sync gauge, I found some small cracks in the affected tube.

    The battery looks good as per my test (12.5 key on not running, drop to 10.5 cranking and up to 13.8 running.).
    I found a trick to help with the dying problem. I pull in the clutch easy/slowly it seems to help and I can release it to pop start if needed. But it has not died lately.
    Not a good feeling or safe when your bike dies on you when slowing down.
    I ordered a new quality sync. gauge and I'll resync when it comes in.
    Thanks again, Ron.
     
  17. skimad4x4

    skimad4x4 "Official" VFRWorld Greeter

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    I am sorry to say those voltages do not look very healthy.

    At a guess your stator and/or RR is on its way out as the volts should definitely be 14+ at anything above idle.

    Those numbers suggest it is time to do "the drill" - but most importantly you need to do those checks twice - once with the engine cold and then repeat straight after taking the bike for a 20+ minute ride to get the engine fully up to temperature. Insulation on electrical windings can be fine whilst cold but can start to short internally when they get hot so instead of charging the bike it quickly drains the battery until the bike shuts down.

    You may find that once you sort out the charging system the engine should be fine - I don't think the choice of air filter will have any impact assuming it is not totally clogged.

    SkiMad
     
  18. GreginDenver

    GreginDenver New Member

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    I've owned my '99 5th Gen for going on 4 years now, and during those 4 years I've been on the VFR forums constantly reading and absorbing the available knowledge (paying special attention to 5th Gens, of course).

    It seems to me that when Honda took the big step from the VFR750 to the VFR800 they created a motorcycle that is very picky about the health of its electrical system (I believe this is true for all of the early fuel injected bikes, just ask the owner of one of the early fuel injected Triumph bikes and he'll tell you a story or three).

    The truth of the VFR800 ownership experience seems to be this: If the bike's electrical system is in good working order, then the bike is an absolute joy to own. If the bike's electrical system isn't healthy, for one or more reasons (i.e. Stator, Regulator/Rectifier, Battery, Corroded/Burned Connectors, etc.), then the bike becomes a confusing pain-in-the-ass to deal with.

    Thus, we have the constant forum emphasis on "doing the drill" on the bike's electrical system.

    It's painful to watch (by way of the forums) people acting in denial, resisting the advice to "do the drill" or watching them do the drill wrong or watching them only doing the drill partially (like just replacing the battery, getting temporary good results, then coming back to the forum when that new battery starts to fail).

    I'm not saying that the problem in this forum thread is due to the bike's electrical system, it could be something else, but there's only one way to go with a 5th Gen VFR and that's to start out with a healthy electrical system, then go on from there if the problem persists.
     
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  19. Diving Pete

    Diving Pete Member

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    an excellent post greg..
     
  20. Ronnie O

    Ronnie O New Member

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    Thanks for the info.
    I'll check the charging system completely. I also have a charger that shows static voltage, starting voltage and running voltage. I'll hook it up to get a second opinion. I did use a fluke meter so it's probably pretty accurate.

    The hose that was cracked went to the bypass control selenoid from the air in shot valve.
    Im thinking one of these two things is or was the problem (battery & or hose).
    It hasn't died lately but still needs more diagnostics.
    Bike dying on you is not good!
     
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