Cross Controlling or Counter Steering

Say what you will, but Eslick can flat ride the shit out of that bike.

 

Here's a video for all you guy's that went to so much effort to try and help the "Weasel".
Good stuff here
Proof Positive That Counter Steering Is The Real Deal - VFR Discussion

 

:tclaw: :fish: :flamer: :boom: :gun3: :chairshot: :kaboom: :hangme: :laser:

DIE THREAD DIE

 

Monk nice video. One big problem. It's not a Buell. Your showing how an average bike counter steers. A Buell is different. Just wanted to let you know. :flypig:

 

I am disappionted w/ you Weasel, you never answered any of my ?'s I asked you.

countersteering does not need to be a alot of input to bars it could be ever so slight.

So if you would be so kind as to explain to me how to turn your bike, I would really enjoy reading it.

Thank you in advance for you answer.
I'll be waiting.

 

I went to your gallery.... Wow... Nice bike:thumbsup:

 

Well there were so many statements flying that it just seemed impossible to respond to a couple during the flurry.

The one that got me the most (and this is not an exact quote) is the difference between the two bikes fork geometry, (and they're wheel base difference for that matter) "not making any difference". I thought that pretty dumb really,, there's a difference there thats fairly profound in the end result.

I think the best way to do a response is for you to research the race bike that used the VFR engine and compare that geometry difference to the bike your riding. I think it would be far more revealing than anything I could say.

Yes! Counter Steering is Happening Riding The 1125r Buell,, just not as much as riding the VFR,, is that so hard to swallow? Without riding the Buell (or any other bike setup like it) for a time, you'll just have to find out "why" another way.

Theres a reason "why" Honda made the VFR they way they did,, I'd like to hear what you find.

 

part 1

First I stand by what I wrote above
prob missed that rake, trail, tail height, wheel base, ride height and steering angle will effect HOW THE BIKE HANDLES but has nothing to do w/ the input needed to make the bike CHANGE direction. a chopper and a sport bike have different set ups but all need the same left to turn right - right to turn left input from rider to turn. this is called counter steering.

 

Actually, not only is that "not" hard to swallow, it's pretty common knowledge.
If you had just said that in your first post, instead of saying that you don't have to CS your Buell..... This would have been a pleasant thread.
But instead, all these people just wanted to inform you that CS is a must to save your life. We as concerned bikers are always trying to look after each others ass.
It took a long time, but we can now see that you understand CS-ing.... That's all "I" was concerned with. There are still a lot of peps that ride bikes that "don't" know that.... Glad to hear you're not one of them...... MONK

 

op2:

The thread that would not die

 

not done yet have work to do part 2 to follow
got sucked in now I will finish it
even if I have to beat the tiger

 

Anyone have Erik's phone number? He can resolve this in a flash.

 

Everyone who wonders how it works (not why, that is physics and other smart guy math stuff) should watch the video that Jethro posted the link for. I had seen that before and was searching for it earlier. It greatly illustrates how at about 15mph steering commands change from turning the bars to the direction you want and above that point to counter-steering. I remember when someone tried to tell me this years ago and I was very skeptical. Until I paid attention. I was counter-steering all the time but didn't realize it. The more you ride the less you pay attention to it on a regular basis, you just do it naturally after learning how a bike (any bike) responds to your input. Conscious counter-steer is absolutely essential in avoidance maneuvers though. As stated previously, you are not gonna miss that muffler in the road by leaning...only by a quick input of counter-steer to start the moment of inertia on the gyro that is your bike.

Here is smart guy talk for it:

One effect of turning the front wheel is a roll moment caused by gyroscopic precession. The magnitude of this moment is proportional to the moment of inertia of the front wheel, its spin rate (forward motion), the rate that the rider turns the front wheel by applying a torque to the handlebars, and the cosine of the angle between the steering axis and the vertical.[8]
For a sample motorcycle moving at 22 m/s (50 mph) that has a front wheel with a moment of inertia of 0.6 kgm2, turning the front wheel one degree in half a second generates a roll moment of 3.5 Nm. In comparison, the lateral force on the front tire as it tracks out from under the motorcycle reaches a maximum of 50 N. This, acting on the 0.6 m (2 ft) height of the center of mass, generates a roll moment of 30 Nm.
While the moment from gyroscopic forces is only 12% of this, it can play a significant part because it begins to act as soon as the rider applies the torque, instead of building up more slowly as the wheel out-tracks. This can be especially helpful in motorcycle racing.

See? It all adds up. It is just how it works, but you don't have to understand the physics, just do it.

 

I love you Hawk... you speaky me languey

Wow, this is the Zombie thread? I just cant seem to find the brain to kill it.

The whole counter steering concept is just so new, I asked my son, who had 7th grade geometry. He explained it like this.

Holy SHIT!?!? I had no idea.

Seriously, the thought that the mechanical make up within a steering linkage (I.e. forks) would make a deterrent against the laws of physics for Centrifugal Force vs Centripetal Force.

Ya know like this..

In motorcycle races, the riders hang off before initiating the actual turns. In order to hang off, some counter-pressure has to be applied to the steering to keep the bike from leaning outwards during the period of time when the rider is shifting his weight inwards.

The typical approximation is that weight in the wheels is effectively double what it would be for the rest of the motorcycle. 1 lb of mass at the perimeter of the tire is equivalent to 2 lbs of mass at the non-moving parts of the motorcycle, regardless of speed.

Imagine a linear forwards force applied to the axis of a hollow cylinder (a very thin wheel). This forwards linear force is opposed by the friction force which peforms the angular acceleration (rotation) of the hollow cylinder.

The angular inertia of a hollow cylinder, Ic = M x R^2 (M = mass of cylidner, R = radius).

In equation form: LF - FF = M LA, LF is linear force, FF is friction force, M is mass, and LA is linear acceleration.
LF is a constant.

AA (angular acceleration) = T (torque) / Ic
AA = LA (linear acceleration) / R (assuming no slippage here)
LA = AA x R
Torque = FF x R

LA = ((FF x R) x R) / (M x R^2)
LA = FF / M
FF = LA x M

So substituting in the first equation:

LF - FF = LA x M
LF - (LA x M) = LA x M
LF = 2 x (LA x M)
LF / M = 2 x LA
LA = 1/2 (LF / M)

So linear acceleration of a wheel is 1/2 of what it would be if it wasn't for the increase in angular speed. For example, if friction force FF=0, then you'd have LA - 0 = LF/M. So weight at the perimeter of the tire affects acceleration by twice as much as the same weight would on a non-moving part of a motorcycle.



Changing the triple tree to increase the angle of the front forks will help reduce the amount of force required to make a turn. Thus will also reduce the amount of noticeable counter steering. However doing so also limits the motorcycles linear stability, and the bike must be outfitted with a steering damper to avoid serious front wheel speed wobble.

Failure to produce ANY counter-steering will result in increased Angular force on the front wheel only, and allow the front tire to rotate at a slower speed than the rear.. subsequently the increase in inertial force from the rear tire, and power will result in a High Side Crash, as the back tire will overtake the trail line of the center of the bike.

Then Again…
All this physics for Centrifugal force, Angular force, Inertia, Mass weight, Gravity, Surface Friction… Mombo Jumbo

Meh, What do I know, a few posts back, I thought the world was FLAT...

I prefer my sons explanation.

 

Not only that, but the slightest input of all the stuff you "don't" believe in will make that bike fall into the hole for a turn.

I metioned thats it sensitive, much more than the VFR, and I believe that it is due to the steeper rake angle (or any other like word if your fussy) that allows this.

This was not incorporated in the VFR that we ride to save you from the most violent high side event that a bike can produce,, and I think you know what that is.

 

This thread is like crack. There's nothing good about it, yet I am drawn to it and can't stop it...

 

see these kind of comments that start it all.
explain what the " stuff we don't belive in " instead of an off the cuff comment. ok?