Body position

Discussion in 'New Riders' started by FearIsGood, Aug 22, 2008.

  1. Bubba Zanetti

    Bubba Zanetti Member

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    A person would think “Body Position” would be one of the least things debated in riding. I was wrong.

    Every class/ school/ expert who teaches how to hang off a motorcycle has their own ‘way’ of doing it. Yes, they look similar, but it’s a much more hotly debated topic than I ever realized.

    I got a taste of the ‘debate’ at my last track day. I learned how to hang off at a Lee Park’s Total Control class. I took what I learned and taught my very good friend Jeff. Jeff had already been hanging off, he only needed a few pointers to get him where he needed to be and knee on the ground. As we practiced what we learned we both took a little different direction. One day Jeff sent me an article that was about old and new school hanging off and he asked me what ‘school’ I was. After reading it I replied new school and you are more old school. Why? What do you think? Jeff concurred and said I am defiantly new school since I hang off the bike way more than he does.

    Fellow friend and VFRW member betarace and his friends were at the track with us. Upon returning to the pits betarace’s friend Steve was laughing because I “look like a monkey hanging way off the bike”. We laughed and betarace said to me that I hang off the bike too much. This was the first time I had someone say this to me. Now, I certainly wasn’t offended or put off because betarace has been trained by Keith Code. Since I own Mr. Codes videos and books I know he sees hanging off a bit differently than who trained me. To Code, my form is probably the law of diminishing returns. I thought about betaraces comment for some time, and I’ve come to a conclusion.

    Every expert who’s had a successful racing career that now teaches riders, teaches their ‘own’ style or what worked for them to their students. Much like Keith Codes saying: “There is no perfect line thru a corner”. Well there is no perfect way to “hang-off”. Now obviously, some are better than others. But what it really boils down to is what makes YOU the individual rider comfortable. If you are learning how to hang off, but one part of the process feels off. Ask questions to those who do hang off what works for them, there is nothing wrong with altering your style. In addition, don’t be afraid to defend your style either. Yeah, you might look weird, but it works for you. Just look at ex-racing legend Mick Doohan. He had one of the most awful hang off styles per the experts that have influenced me, but Doohan was fast as hell! Doohan’s style worked for him.

    So how do you know if your style is right? Easy, you will be RELAXED. If you are hanging off and are tense, it just doesn’t work. Actually being ‘tense’ when hanging off causes WAY more problems, which just frustrates the poor rider trying to learn. Trust me, I was that rider.

    This is why my style morphed into what it is. The more I got off the bike, the MORE relaxed I got. The more relaxed I am, the more corner speed I carry, the faster I go around the track.

    As Dalexander said: Enjoy your track days coming this summer!

    BZ
     
  2. KC-10 FE

    KC-10 FE New Member

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    When I teach my sport bike classes, the curriculum is separated into 2 distinct parts.

    1) About 85% is techniques for the semi-useful blob of goo inside your helmet. If you don't believe that you or your machine can do it, chances are you will in fact fail since you talked yourself into it. Once I get people to BELIEVE, you can invariably see the light bulb turn on & almost instantly that person becomes a better rider.

    2) The other 15% is physical techniques. When we get to the exercise about body position, we spend at least 40 solid minutes riding because I tell the students to start slow & experiment. Sometimes guys go straight to knee dragging & other it takes awhile. 10000%, if you incorporate body position into your riding, you are going to be a better, smoother & if it's your goal, a faster rider.

    I am definitely one of the "New School" guys. When I hang off my bike at the range, my wife tells me it looks as if I'm about to fall off. I must be doing something right since I can usually out-ride 90% of people in street riding scenarios. When I am at full monkey, I am usually looking over my inside elbow PAST my mirror. VFR's are phenominally forgiving so most of us here have a great bike to learn this on. If you don't have a range or school to learn this, it can be done safely on the street. If you can find one that is VERY LIGHTLY TRAVELLED, a traffic circle is a great place to practice. Large parking lots are great since they have evenly placed lines to measure distance. I tell you this now, once you learn how it's done, you will NEVER ride the old way again, I can assure you of that. Just look at your rear tire. If your chicken strips are less than 1/2", you are not using body position to your advantage.

    KC-10 FE out...
    :plane: :usa2:
     
  3. betarace

    betarace New Member

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  4. mello dude

    mello dude Administrator

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    Great comments!

    MD
     
  5. Bubba Zanetti

    Bubba Zanetti Member

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  6. Hotbrakes

    Hotbrakes New Member

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    Hanging off definitely maximizes the contact patch of the tire and if you remember from geometry basically creates a triangle which is the most stable object. Of course it takes practice to find the sweet spot and done properly will allow the rider to take any necessary evasive manuevers through body control versus handlebar input which would throw off the balance of bike and rider. Plus it allows the bike stay more upright and utilize the suspension in its intended direction of travel.

    [​IMG]

    In this pic I am obviously uncomfortable and trying too hard to hang off while not following a good line or lacking the proper corner speed. The above pic is the sweet spot.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    And for you haters, the speed limit is 55 and I am going well under that. Plus there is a perfect line of sight so the little bit of me hanging over the line was not dangerous.
     
  7. betarace

    betarace New Member

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    here is thunderbolt, a 16 year old VFR
    [​IMG]
     
  8. malcster

    malcster New Member

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    Excuse me,but just dragging ones knee does not make one a great rider.No x GP rider here,loving the forum though.Used to race bicycles(mtn+road)arthritis now.Riding the patch af best adhesion is what it is all about.Move the body to keep the bike upright as possible when traction gets marginal.Seen the wanna'bees try too hard to get that Kneedraggin' GP look. Hard trying but missing the physics.Love those GP guys,half the time their rear is spinnin' n slidin',their knee is their tripod brace.Off the track...I would not trust anyroad with MY knee.Thanks folks...my 2cents
     
  9. Bubba Zanetti

    Bubba Zanetti Member

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    Nobody above said dragging a knee is indicative of good riding. If you re-read what I wrote, my point is embrace your style if you are relaxed and it works for you. If the knee touches great, if not , who cares.

    The knee down is primarily a gauge of how much lean angle your pouring on. At least for me.

    Faster riders than me at the track (betrace is one, for now:tongue:) rarely drags a knee. Then their are faster riders than both of us who damn near drag an elbow!

    Getting into the postion that keeps you relaxed while cornering is what the rider should be after.

    BZ
     
  10. KC-10 FE

    KC-10 FE New Member

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    To clarify for those that don't know (to a lesser extent to expand on what Bubba wrote), dragging a knee has absolutely ZERO to do with stability. If you are depending on you knee to stabilize you in a turn, you ARE going to crash.

    Dragging a knee serves one & only one purpose. It is a gauge to let the rider know how far he HAS leaned. Once the knee touches down, the rider then knows that he has nothing left, the bike is at the limit of tire/traction.

    If your goal is to show everyone scratches on your knee pucks, dragging a knee then has two purposes.

    KC-10 FE out...
    :plane: :usa2:
     
  11. SLOVFR

    SLOVFR Member

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    What about when your elbow drags?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  12. deltazulu

    deltazulu New Member

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  13. Dalexander

    Dalexander New Member

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    Hi, I just went back to this thread to give an update about my progress so far on the VFR. I have added about 6k miles since January and feel a lot more confident now. I am certainly not a racer but my comfort level has increased a lot. The VFR seems to have potential I was not aware of. Last saturday I joined a race event by chance and the VFR held up with much more sporty bikes - at least in corners - and I realized that the power is enough to lift the front wheel when speeding between corners. The only downside was that my tires were gone after that day. Ok, the VFR does not feel so powerful like real sports bikes - I tried a R1 and a fireblade - but in real life they did not lose me as they (I) thought they would. Admittedly the sports bike power is amazing but it comes with a price when touring. The VFR on balance is the much better bike for me as it does everything - fast - and comfortable and stable and without complaining. So I will keep on enjoying this bike.
    PS: I had one nasty experience though. The oil filter leaked a bit after the race and a mechanic tightened it and cracked it.. On the way back from the track I nearly crashed into oncoming traffic in a tight left hand corner when the rear tyre spun out on the oil that leaked from the filter. I made it home - 180 km - and changed the filter and oil. 3 liters gone.. Lucky me I would say. The cleaning took hours as the bike was caked in oil and mud. From now on I change oil and filter myself.
    Enjoy riding
    Axel
     
  14. Dalexander

    Dalexander New Member

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    Hi, I just went back to this thread to give an update about my progress so far on the VFR. I have added about 6k miles since January and feel a lot more confident now. I am certainly not a racer but my comfort level has increased a lot. The VFR seems to have potential I was not aware of. Last saturday I joined a race event by chance and the VFR held up with much more sporty bikes - at least in corners - and I realized that the power is enough to lift the front wheel when speeding between corners. The only downside was that my tires were gone after that day. Ok, the VFR does not feel so powerful like real sports bikes - I tried a R1 and a fireblade - but in real life they did not lose me as they (I) thought they would. Admittedly the sports bike power is amazing but it comes with a price when touring. The VFR on balance is the much better bike for me as it does everything - fast - and comfortable and stable and without complaining. So I will keep on enjoying this bike.
    PS: I had one nasty experience though. The oil filter leaked a bit after the race and a mechanic tightened it and cracked it.. On the way back from the track I nearly crashed into oncoming traffic in a tight left hand corner when the rear tyre spun out on the oil that leaked from the filter. I made it home - 180 km - and changed the filter and oil. 3 liters gone.. Lucky me I would say. The cleaning took hours as the bike was caked in oil and mud. From now on I change oil and filter myself.
    Enjoy riding
    Axel
     
  15. deepdish

    deepdish Banned

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    i like doggy style but when i get tired she can do the rodeo girl....
     
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