BlackWidow or Delkevic Headers?

Hey CandyMan, it is all about what you want, right? Well, where does the Delkevic headers fit into you inequality?

Anyway, as we all know, there aren't many choices in headers right now; and the headers more or less shape the power band.

As a purely academic exercise, I'd like to take the area underneath the curve of all the torque/horsepower curves. I'd bet they'd be similar!

Anyway, I've got a big hunch, but have not explored it yet, that the VFR's biggest killer of performance is its induction system, and yes coupled with the exhaust system and cam profiles...

The induction/exhaust system is a compromise. That's the idea, I think, along with some others to go with direct injection and forced induction.

Anyway, keep it up Candy. We need an active R&D team! Be warned, however, that your bike could easily end up being a hodge-podge of parts not taking into consideration that the bike is a SYSTEM.

Oh yeah, check out Mazda's LeMans of old with the exhaust that changed shape. My former college car, MX-6 LS had a variable inlet length intake that does very much what VTEC does for the Hondas, both the autos and the bikes although implemented differently. What's so interesting is that the VRIS should be zip tied or equivalent in the full open position when there is forced induction; no need for new cams. Why? The forced charge just blows right by the cams.

Anyway keep up the R&D. By the way, could you possibly in the future take a snapshot of the wiring harness for the Rapid Bike? Additionally, could you provide a pin-out based upon the results of a continuity check of each pin to pin along with lengths? Sorry bout going off topic; however, I know you are lurking somewhere.

Thanks.

Delkevic looks like a good start, maybe Tyga if we can get them in. One thing is for sure, I'd love to see a better induction system on the VFR especially with a Ram-Air intake, not so much for the ram air effect but for the tuning and building of the column of air needed at the higher RPMs. That along with that exhaust of yours could easily spell, whoopee and extend the top end.

I also believe, the VFR is limited by economics and by the EPA and whoever sets the standards for max noise levels. Those type of intakes are LOUD. As a matter of fact, I think the prototype VFR I just saw in a book had a picture of it with just that.

Anyway, thanks group.

 

Mine is the non California model 1998 with fuel injection. Not dealing with any smog stuff and the fuel injection picked up on the new pipe and runs fine. Very happy with it.

 

What the heck? I go to work for 10 hours, and nobody jumped on the bargain that is my old Honda Header?!

How about I throw in a slightly used thermostat, and a slightly used Honda Rectifier?

Ridnout, well said.

 

I guess delkivic would be somewhere around the motad header give or take, nothing special, just a budget remake of the 1998/1999 Honda catless header.

Yes, headers do shape the powerband, but unfortunately, no current offerings do anything dramatic (noticeable or measurable increases) for this. The original Two Brothers and Erion Racing headers and theoretical future Tyga Headers, do offer a dramatic increase in midrange-top end horsepower increases, at the expense of off idle (1000-2500) torque and response.

No the area under of the curves are not similar. I am sure the sandy/delkivic/oem/motad are similar, but the true performance offerings (2bros/erion/tyga) will show huge area under the curve increases through the midrange and top end, with a negligible loss below 4000 (honestly below 4000 you are lugging, so this is irrelevant).

The induction system and slip on exhaust isn't much of a bottle neck at these hp levels. The tiny header Primaries/Secondaries and poor merge angles are a huge bottle neck. Opening up the air box doesn't do much, but ram air would be nice. Optimizing the velocity stacks (shorter and wider) for more topend, has shown a good improvement. You are correct about the cam profiles, they are extremely mild, as these heads are capable of supporting 160 plus whp, the cams were dialed way down. Basically everything about this engines architecture screams super bike (the bore to stroke ratio, the rod ratio, the intake and exhaust valve diameter etc are all more suited for big top end horsepower), but Honda did their best to dial it down with a mild stroke increase, mild cams, tiny header/throttle bodies/velocity stacks, low compression ratio, mild ignition timing etc. None of those changes did much to increase low end torque, but they did kill the top end horsepower.

Direct injection, forced induction etc, I think you are getting ahead of yourself here and applying things that you know about cars, to an engine that you are not too familiar with. Instead of direct injection, what Honda should do is go with your typical modern sport bike induction, big bore throttle bodies with dual butterfly's/ injectors/ velocity stacks to optimize velocity and fuel atomization at all rpms and throttle positions and a large volume airbox, plus ram air. Forced induction would be cool, but the added complexity isn't needed here to make a fun 150ish hp street bike. A little overbore, compression increase, hotter cams and the induction changes we just talked about would be plenty to make this a competitive almost liter engine. 825cc and 150 crank hp is very attainable.

My bike is a continuing build focusing on a total system goal of increasing mid to topend power. No hodgepodge here.

Vtec is great and would be even more beneficial with hotter cams, as two valve mode would allow for better velocity and fuel atomization at low revs when using more aggressive cams.

The Rapid bike wire harness has been posted a few times in the rapid bike threads.
http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/index.p...up-buy/&page=7

I am using an open air box, pipecross filter, r6 velocity stacks and 2mm overbore throttle bodies, with port matching all around, that is more than enough. Mohawk has taken it a step further and implemented dual length velocity stacks and ram air, in conjunction with a two brothers header, rapid bike, hotter custom cams and a few other tweeks, he is at 120whp with a great power band. Highsidenz took it even further with 2mm overbore and custom cbr929 pistons for a displacement and compression increase, he is at 140whp...

Delkevic, I am sorry is not a good start, it is a waste of time and money. You would be much better putting time and money into tracking down a true performance header. They are out there if you search hard enough. One just popped up last month and they are the only real ticket to efficiently approaching and surpassing 110whp.

Yes totally correct, the VFR is very much so limited by economics and the epa.

I hope all this helps. Do some research on Mohawk, Highsidenz and my threads. The recipe for VFR800 power has already been laid out. No need for all these wild stary eyed ideas. The recipe is simple, proven and already laid out.

I've got about $03.75

 

There it is; I'm not looking for a true performance header. I just wanna rid myself of that rusted mild steel header. As an aside, engines ARE engines, topology or not.

The Mazda MX-6 engine's architecture is more like a motorcycle than your typical car's engine, performance or not. The heads were designed by Yamaha. It features a huge piston with a relatively small stroke and a stock 7500 RPM rev limit. Direct injection as a technology is an attempt to get rid of needing a cam and its associated hardware.

I am unsure about velocity stacks, blah blah blah, in how it works with the system in a motorcycle; however, usually a long tube on the intake whether inside a resonant chamber or not allows a column of air to be built that feeds the engine. Moreso, it allows power pulses, gulps of air, to be taken into the engine. At the end of the day, can you take in alot of air with your mouth wide open on a gulp or a quick stream through a straw?

Oh yes, the power pulses are loud! You think VTEC is loud, the MX-6 did the same exact thing, WRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR WRRRRRRRRRRRRRR WRRRRRRRRRRRRR. You could here the resonance created and the power pulses. But it was just so dang loud under load! If you've ever been in a turbocharged sports car at WOT, same thing-->pure induction music.

Now with motorcycles and its confines, maybe fatter and shorter is better, but I'd wager that is better for the low and midrange; long and with a relatively small diameter to build that voluminous column of air AND increase Velocity is what I remember.

Anyway, I bought a book from the motorcycle shop about a week ago. It's much more capable and modern than my great grandfather's book with theory. If I could get some time, I'd really like to go from cover to cover and apply it.

Just my two cents on a guess, the VFR's frame is the biggest culprit for reduced performance. Now that 6th Gen, ummmm, dunno. One mmmight be able to create the inlet tracts in the same place as the turn signals. Just a thought.

Hmmmm, what I'd really like to look at would be the complete architecture of that RC213V-S.

I betcha that's not just for the RAM Air effect. With the relocation of the gas tank behind and beneath the rider, I bet that airbox has some seriously long runners inside, but dunno.

Hey I even said that a front mounted radiator was doable just by looking at that RC213V-S. Noooo said most; enter 2014, BAM!

Dream a little and think outside the box.

I hit your link for the wire harness and got Parts Geek-->ABS wheel speed wire harness. If this is in fact the correct material used to create a hand made harness, awesome; otherwise, did something go wrong?

 

I dont understand why you are talking about all this ram air/forced induction/direct injection/"the tuning and building of the column of air needed at the higher RPMs. That along with that exhaust of yours could easily spell, whoopee and extend the top end." If you are not even going to fit a performance header. There is no sense in trying to tune the induction for top end if the exhaust is tuned for lowend, that is hodgepodge...

I also do not get what you mean by, "Direct injection as a technology is an attempt to get rid of needing a cam and its associated hardware". Direct injection is an alternative means of injecting fuel, by injecting it at an extremely high 30,000 psi directly into the combustion chamber, instead of at 40psi into the intake port or shower head above the velocity stacks. Direct injection allows you to precisely control the fuel timing for less risk of detonation at high dynamic compression ratios and less risk of fuel reversion at lower revs. Direct injection is for fuel efficiency, it pairs well for low rpms, high compression ratios and boost. Direct injection doesn't have much use in a high rpm engine where large valve overlap keeps dynamic compression in check and high rpms lower your available time for fuel to atomize. High rpms call for shower head injection above the velocity stacks, to allow time for the fuel to atomize.

Velocity stacks are used to tune the rpm range where the air will be at optimum velocity. Say optimum velocity is 50 m/s. Long skinny velocity stacks may allow the air to reach 50m/s at 5000 rpms, but require the air to travel faster than optimum at 10000 rpms. Vice versa, shorter and wider velocity stacks may need an engine to spin to a higher rpm to draw air in at an efficient velocity, so the engine will produce good power at high rpms, but at low rpms the air will not have enough momentum and may experience reversion.

I can guarantee that the rc213's air box was designed for high volume and not long runners. Long runners are for low end torque, which has more place in a tow truck than in moto gp racing.

 

And this is why Yamaha came out with variable length velocity stacks a long time ago.

Now how about that direct injection 2 stroke that has been promised to pass EPA?

 

Truuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu 10/10

 

Honda is just going to tease us with V4 sport bikes and direct injection 2 strokes. Read this a while back, and there are many companies looking into the power of the old smokers with direct injection.

http://newatlas.com/honda-two-stroke-with-fuel-injection-patent-filing/38529/

 

The polaris ski doo 800cc 2 stroke DI twin is great. Very compact and 160hp. I would love to toss that is some small modern sport bike.

 

Oh yes!!!!!! I wonder the weight of that engine. I hear the big weight savings of 2 stroke suffer when they are DI and you get close to a 4 stroke weight.

 

Yeah that high pressure fuel pump would probably add a few pounds, but nonetheless I am sure an 800cc twin would be considerably lighter than a 1000cc four cylinder, regardless of 2 stroke vs four stroke or direct injection.

 

Exactly on some points. Others, when time permits, I'll check. The variable inlet length is a tuned port with variable tuning as used on the MX-6 2.5L V6.

The induction system and exhaust are like a mouth and butt. There must be a balance, correct. That is why I'm saying that so much exhaust work won't give that much of a hop alone unless the induction system is bettered.

As I used to play with this stuff a long time ago, there was mean air volume and mean air pressure. You had to choose a topology along with its compromises.

You are an engineer and closer to the automotive arena than I being an EE. Velocity stacks are akin to the runners of an intake manifold, plenum, what have you. The physics is the same.

I just believe so much about a header without induction work is moot UNLESS you have a arget bandwidth.

Anyway, take care.

 

I just read that the new Motus V4 bike has direct injection of its V4 4 stroke engine. Half way down this article.
http://www.cycleworld.com/2011/04/04/future-injection-special-feature

 

Wishful thinking, but its still port injection lol


http://motusmotorcycles.com/american-v4

 

I still want to test ride one!

 

Life goals

 

There's a Motus Dealer right down the road from me. Duccmann and I went on a field trip when he came by the house to get his shock swapped out. Nice looking and appear to have a nice build quality, unfortunately we didn't test ride one!

 

Are you saying that they don't do any research? Would there be much difference on a bike. Would anyone notice a 5-8 bhp increase in top end power? I don't think so.

Think what most folk want is a noisier pipe and a lighter system.

 

How many guys are going with forced induction on a VFR? Delkevic just wants to make money. That was a brilliant statement. Every company has to make a profit. That's the bottom line of every company.

The light weight was a nice bonus. I left my long muffler alone. I like quiet.

If you cannot notice an 8 hp difference, I suggest getting the earbuds out, and pay attention.