Bagging on FRAM?????

I hope you don't think I'm worked up about your posts BP.

You are just sharing your info. and experience. That's great and I appreciate it.:senor:

What I don't appreciate is hostility, self-importance and arrogance. I'm not seeing that in anything you are posting. Billy is another story. :bored:

Moving on.

My understanding of what an oil filter bypass valve does and how it functions, agrees fully with your explanation BP.

Here goes the long part of this post.

The Roki version of the OEM filter (as I understand that was the best version) has an 18 psi. bypass valve spring pressure, the P1 has a 17 psi spring, so it will go into bypass a tiny bit sooner than an OEM filter. I have found references putting the VFR800 internal oil pump bypass pressure at around 8 psi. So that would mean the built in bypass kicks in WAY before ANY filter's (including the OEM) bypass valve. In other words, Honda engineers wanted to be absolutely SURE that the engine will never starve for oil no matter what the rate of flow of your chosen filter. Your filter’s bypass is a failsafe that only kicks in if something is REALLY wrong with both the filter media AND the oil pump.

All the above says indicates that the critical value for deciding if your filter even gets a chance to TRY and filter the oil, is the operating back pressure across the media of the filter, at normal operating temperature. Too much back pressure makes the built-in oil bypass valve kick open and you may as well not even have a filter.

Let’s now to discuss the critical flow/pressure relationship. If your engine oil circuit creates an EXACT match to the flow characteristics of your filter (and they ALWAYS create less than 8 psi. back pressure), the bypass will NEVER open and you are ALWAYS filtering your oil. If the built in restriction of your engine oil filter (or your engine oil circuit) is ALWAYS more than 8 psi., then the built in pump bypass is ALWAYS engaged and your filter NEVER filters oil.

Unfortunately there are two flow rate variables that I can’t find any reference to or test results for. How much oil does our oil pump flow without restriction (at given RPM) and what is the maximum flow rate of our engine oil circuit? Knowing those two variables is critical to determining if a filter will create a bypass condition in the pump. The best number I have been able to dig out is that “modern motorcycle engines” flow at maximums of around 10 GPM. I don’t know if that means the pump itself puts out that much oil at max. flow without restriction, or if that means that (on average) modern motorcycle engines cycle 10 gallons of oil through their normally operating oil circuits. I am going to make a command decision and say that we are talking about 10 GPM of oil flowing through our engines at max capacity, at normal operating temps. and at a pressure of about 71 psi. If someone has better numbers, I would appreciate the info. For now, lets run with the flow numbers as stated above.

We know that the SS filters have been tested at about 1 psi of back pressure. As the filter loads up things change, but let’s just talk about a new filter. That differential is negligible, so you can pretty much rely on the fact that it will ALWAYS flow at max capacity and the following should hold true.

1.) The K&P SS filter is rated 100% absolute for particles 35 microns or larger
2.) Everything smaller than 35 micron will sail right through and constantly cycle in the engine
3.) The engine oil circuit restriction is what will cause the typical bypass condition - NOT the filter

We also know (using Purolator’s data) that the P1 filter can flow up to 16 gpm without exceeding 8 psi. back pressure. Again, as the filter loads up things change, but let’s just talk about a new filter. If our oil pump flows 16 GPM OR LESS, then it cannot induce enough filter related back pressure to kick in the oil pump bypass valve. Assuming our flow numbers from above, at 10 gpm the P1 creates 4 psi of back pressure. So the filter cannot cause enough back pressure to kick in the built in bypass, even at max. operational pump flow rates. The native engine oil circuit restriction would be the cause of any back pressure sufficient to cause a bypass condition in the pump. That means the following should hold true about the P1.

1.) The P1 is rated 99.9% absolute effective on particles 35 microns in size.
2.) The P1 filter will also be catching high amounts of the most critical sized particles (10 - 20 micron) that cause engine wear at all times. Ratings are 50.0% @ 5 micron (nominal), 92.8% @ 10 micron, 99.2% @ 15 micron
3.) The P1 flows in excess of the mechanical capabilities of the pump without creating back pressure levels that will trigger the built in pump bypass. The engine oil circuit restriction is what will cause the typical bypass condition - NOT the filter

If you argue any of my numbers, then throw better ones out here with sources. If not, I am still convinced that the K&P SS filter is NOT a better performance choice for real world use. It’s expensive bling.

End result is that the P1 is better for our application and so are all similarly performing, high end paper or mixed media filters.:thumbsup:

Sucker.:wink:

Jose

 

I'd say me too, but me too, is less than the required ten characters for some technical reason...

 

Here is my take!
Most Riders change the oil in their bikes once a year.
So all you are buying is 1 oil filter & 3-4 quarts of oil per year, So do right by her, & get what "YOU" consider is the Best Oil & Filter!

 

OMG are you misinformed or on drugs? The dudes here change oil and filters some every 500 miles. The reason is that here are found the hardest and fastest ricers anywhere on the planet. If you don't believe it just ask.

 

500 miles is 200 miles over.

 

First filter at 100, second at 200, oil and filter at 300.

Savages.

Jose

 

otstir: :lol:

 

Did anyone hear about the harleydood that was using recycled oil from McDonalds in his bike? He got chased down and eaten by wild dogs.

 

Billy - you have knocked it out of the park again!

Did they ask for fries and cheese to go with the grease? ound:

otstir:

By the way, excellent post Jose.


Let the games begin..... (oops, I'm a little late, I think :smile
op2:

 

I filtered out the gory and small bits as best I could using the tools at hand.

 

Ummm you better check your resources. If the bypass in the pump is 8#'s then how do you get enough pressure to float the crank? Your oil pressure would be less than 8#'s. The oil pump by-pass valve is not like an oil filter by-pass valve in what they are supposed to do. So did you work with Honda engineers? Is that how you know what they really wanted?

 

Ok, smart alecs. What I understand about our engine’s oil circuit is based on what I know about other engine oil circuit designs I have experience with. I am still learning about the V-4 engine in my bike, so someone please correct me if I am wrong on any specifics. It is my OPINION that the Honda engineering team would have worked from a best practices model and that is why I believe the “Honda engineers wanted to be absolutely SURE that the engine will never starve for oil no matter what the rate of flow of your chosen filter”. Picky, picky picky. :moon:

I know 8 psi sounds wierd, especially given that the engine oil gets to about 71 psi. at full pressure. The general function of an oil pump bypass circuit can be a little tricky to understand. An oil pump relief valve senses for a backpressure condition after the pump, but BEFORE (typically that means inside) the filter. If the pressure coming out of the pump is MORE than 8 psi higher than the pressure coming out of the filter, the relief valve opens up. That allows pressurized oil to completely bypass the filter and sends unfiltered oil through the engine. It will stay open AS LONG AS THE BACKPRESSURE EXCEEDS 8 psi. So your filter at maximum flow, CANNOT create more than 8 psi of backpressure in a gen. 5 VFR, or you WILL be sending unfiltered oil through your engine. That’s not exactly a desirable condition, but it beats seizing your engine due to oil starvation. In a dragster with a STUPID high flow rate, it can be VERY possible that your filter won't be able to handle the flow, so the comments that drag racing some filters will "float" their bypass valves are valid.

On a similar note, I recall a discussion about an oil pump with a magnesium body and steel piston (either our bikes or maybe a Ducati?) having a problem where the magnesium cylinder wall wears and the piston gets cockeyed. End result is that the bypass gets jammed shut. So let’s say that somehow, the bypass has failed AND the filter is SO full of muck that it has suddenly collapsed and has ZERO flow. Now the pressure builds up inside the filter and the FILTER’s builtin bypass valve senses 17 psi of fluid pressure INSIDE the filter housing. End result? The filter bypass opens up and allows oil to pass into the engine. Again you have unfiltered oil cycling, but there is an added danger as now the oil is grabbing ALL THE LOOSE CRAP FROM THE DIRTY SIDE OF THE FILTER and pushing it through the engine. If the filter really is clogged because of something that has been floating around in there, you could be in for a world of hurt.

If this total failure scenario were to happen I wonder if there would be a pressure spike of 17 psi. (the setting of a P1 bypass)? The operating pressure of 71 psi. is a relative value from specific flow coming out of the pump vs. specific flow through the engine. The clogged filter would resist the flow up to 17 psi, but would then be wide open to the full 71 psi. So it should stay open as long as the pump is running above 17 psi., which is pretty much all times. Hmmmmm...... anyone got thoughts on that?

What you have to remember in all this, is that liquids do not compress. So you cannot have an oil PRESSURE problem, without a flow problem. That is what makes a vertical filter mounted under the engine, THE ideal setup. There is no air space in the filter that has to fill up with liquid. Since the filter NEVER empties out, the second you spin the oil pump, it is sending pressurized oil through the ENTIRE system as quickly as possible.

Another interesting thing is that my oil pump (I don’t know about other generations) is a dual circuit pump. One circuit pumps oil through the engine, the second circuit pumps lower pressure oil through the oil cooler.

Jose

 

Be respectful of Jose' and his theories or he will send that kickboxer dude to your house to kick the the shit out of your oil filters. Another reason IMO, to have a SS filter.

 

There's nothing tricky about it. If you have a 60# oil pump and the pressure at the pump is 65#'s lets say, the RELIEF(not by pass) valve (in the pump) will open around 60#s and let the extra oil out of the pump so it can maintain 60#'s and not higher. So the pump will pump 60#'s of pressure at max when oil gets hot. Most pumps will open the pressure relief in cold conditions when the oil is at it's thickest or under high rpms. You also can have lots of flow without much pressure. They do kind of go hand in hand but not always. To much oil pressure has the possibility of "washing the bearings" which creates less oil at the bearings. Dragsters,funny cars and the Mod class all use external multi stage oil pumps and dry sumps without filters. They don't care or really can't use filters because they are a restriction (plus something to screw up) because the motor gets pulled apart after every run (or race weekend) and the bearings are checked. In reality they are like a throw away motor. You just need them for this run. That's one reason why they have spare motors.

The 1st gen oil pumps and the other V4 pumps are the same, pump oil thru the filter/cooler for the bearings and another circuit passes unfiltered to the trans. Just look at an oil flow diagram in the FSM.

Your right in how a "by pass" valve works in an oil filter though. Just because a pump is rated at 10gpm doesn't mean that's what the motor uses. Just how much oil it can pump at max. Pumps that are rated at gpm vs pressure just means it has the capability to pump X amount in to the motor IF needed. You can have a 10 gpm or a 20 gpm oil pump and they both are rated at 90# pressure.

 

Honda car filters and motorcycle filters use 2 different manufacturer lines, the motorcycle filters are not Fram they use Filtech, their car filters (the blue ones) are contracted by Fram. I don't think you'll hear any any oil filter causing any engine to blow up, you simply just shorten it's useful life span that's all. Just like eating a western bacon burger at carls isn't gonna kill you but keep eating them and it eventually will. A far as purolator if you read bitterpils post he also has had issues with pure ones on his bike which is why I don't use them, too much of a good thing isn't always good.

 

I think you are confused, there is a huge difference between 8psi of negative pressure (before oil pump pressureizes it) from the oil filter to 40-70psi after it. What he is saying is it will bypass the filter IF there is more then 8psi worth of forced needed to pull the oil through the filter.

 

Sorry I'm confused now. Are you talking about the filter by-pass? If so I agree. If your talking about the oil pump relief valve I don't agree. Not unless Honda oil pumps have a dual circuit or something to that effect going to the filter. I don't know of any oil pumps with a by pass circuit. All the ones I know of have a pressure relief valve so as not to over pressurize. The oil that goes thru the relief valve goes back in to the pan.

 

One kickboxer? Shit, I'll send them both and they'll play socker with your damn filter. I will admit that the SS filter would definitely handle the ass kicking better.


Grey - Viffer pointed the relief valve float issue out earlier and that would only apply to a street engine running a cartridge filter. I realize that competition dragsters do all sorts of stuff that doesn't apply to the street. Although it is very cool stuff, even if they don't like running filters. I totally get how a drag engine would work well with the SS jobbies.

I'm on the same page with you about bypass and pressure relief being two different things. Viffer gets what I'm saying. When I saw numbers of 8 psi, I concluded that meant bypass. I've been looking for a good FSM for a while now (all I have is a cheesy Clymers that came with my bike) and finally found where it lives on the site. Looking at the oil circuit diagram, I only see a relief valve inside the pump and then nothing else in the circuit until the filter. If that's the case, the 8 lbs. figure I've seen can't be right. There is no bypass circuit in that diagram. The 8 lbs. also can't mean the bypass on the filter either as all the numbers I find say that the OEM filters have an 18 psi. bypass spring pressure. That 8 psi number might have just been a red herring or some other pump design. What does look wacky, is that the relief valve appears to live on the oil cooler rotor housing, not on the main pump rotor housing.

So, I guess I have to scratch some of where I have been going and re-focus. Our engines only have a pressure relief. Anyone know what pressure value that guy has? It's not listed in the FSM. I also saw in closeup pictures that our filters ARE mounted horizontally. So it would matter whether or not the filter has an anti-reverse valve. There's another reason not to use the SS filters.

Jose