ABS v. No ABS

Discussion in 'New Riders' started by B.Craig, Oct 17, 2008.

  1. navymed97

    navymed97 New Member

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    outstanding choice!
    I just got an 07 with abs (not the tri to retro for me but still pretty). I live in San Francisco so heavy traffic and crazy cabbies / muni's are a givin. before my new VFR I was riding a 750 Katana.. WAS... I was clipped by a car on my right side when he decided to change lanes onto my right foot peg and it sent me fork first into the trunk of a car on my left. my wheels locked up as I was oh$h!tting my way into that car. left some good skid marks before my handle bars said hi to the rear wideshield. in the city we get cut off a lot espically by cabbies. I've felt the difference with the ABS and have had to use them already. The extra G has save me and of course just as important my baby!
     
  2. RVFR

    RVFR Member

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    Okay guys how many here have actually had the ABS do it's job? What about when your leaned over in a turn and for some reason one applies to much brake? I'm thinking there's new skill here to be learned how to handle the brakes when the ABS works do you still stop like you'd like? Whats the distance comparison with or with out? and how about control issues? Just asking.
    I'm thinking here I'd never want to be in the spot regardless if I have it or not, to me it's a matter of simplicity, in this case less is more, but it seems it's where bikes are going now a days, so what do I know. Other than I remember the good ole days taking a 69 Nova down the road just me and the car, open the hood and you can see the engine, what ever happen to things being simple? Not ratting on ABS, just in my mind bikes where meant to be simple machines, now look. Next is auto pilot & built in GPS. shessh where's the fun in that?
     
  3. Wabbit1961

    Wabbit1961 New Member

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    Rvfr -

    It's a new skill just getting used to the linked brakes, regardless of ABS or non-ABS system. Re-read my post above.

    It's also a good idea to take the advanced MSF course to show you some skills you may be overlooking that may save you and your bike some skin.

    In the advanced course you ride your own bike. They can teach you how best to utilize, and what to avoid doing with your linked-brakes. Most instructors down my way ride Honda Goldwings or something similar and they are very familiar with ABS systems and their quirks.
     
  4. HondaTech

    HondaTech New Member

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    I went with the ABS model just like yours. I am new to motorcycling as well and put my first 6k on a Suzuki GS500f. Compared to that (a great learning bike) the VFR has ungodly stopping power with light pressure on the lever. For me, I commute every day it isn't snow or ice 27 miles each way and I just thought knowing in an emergency stop I can grab a fist full of brake and not get tossed as long as the bike is straight gives me a sense of security when I'm riding around some of the mouth-breathers that also commute on the same highway. ABS isn't a replacement for due diligence, and paying attention, but it is a good saftey net in a panic stop IMO.
     
  5. supervfr

    supervfr Banned

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    True that. I hope you never have to use it.
     
  6. HondaTech

    HondaTech New Member

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    Me too! I always ride knowing every car I see on the road is there to kill me. I plan accordingly
     
  7. powerslave

    powerslave New Member

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    Ride an ABS equipped VFR exactly the same as you'd ride a regular VFR.....
    Forget it's there....you'll never know the bike has ABS if you just get out there and ride.
    If you grab too much brake while leaned over in mid-corner,you'll wipe out just like a non ABS bike...no worries there!!!!:tongue:

    As far as straight-line hard braking goes,if you turn your brain off and simply hammer the brakes full-on,your stopping distance will be longer than if you modulated the brake pressure properly.(Yes you can threshold brake with ABS...I've played around with mine and you can get a pretty nasty howl out of the front tire as it bites into the road)The ABS system only comes on after some grave error has taken place....It replaced that "locked-up I'm eating bumper" moment with an "ABS is lettin' me swerve around this asshole" moment.(Assuming you are enough of a rider to make such a maneouver)

    However,I will say this in defence of the NON-ABS school of thought:If you use ABS as a crutch and never learn to brake properly,you are NOT doing yourself any good!.....You suck and don't even know it!

    Oh yeah...the issue of braking on gravel was brought up,and YES ABS does suck on gravel.....Go and get a KLR 600!:tongue:
     
  8. Mainjet

    Mainjet New Member

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  9. Spectre

    Spectre New Member

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    No ABS: Front vs. Rear lockup

    The Basic Rider Course teaches that when riding motorcycles without linked brakes and ABS, the procedures for recovering from a front vs. rear wheel lock-up are quite different. According to the BRC, the following rules generally apply:

    1) If you happen to lock-up the front tire due to excessive application of the front (hand) brake, often the best way to recover is to immediately release the front brake lever, which will hopefully allow the front tire to regain traction.

    2) In marked contrast, if you happen to lock-up the rear tire due to excessive application of the rear (foot) brake, often the best way to recover is to not release the rear brake until the rear tire stops fish-tailing from side-to-side.

    For many street riders (myself included) this is a lot of non-intuitive stuff to suddenly implement and remember in an 'Oh shit' moment. On the other hand, linked ABS may be life-saving.

    For what its worth, the 2007 BMW K1200GT has partial linked ABS, in which applying the front brake will automatically apply some rear brake, while applying only the rear brake will not result in any automatic application of the front brake. Moreover, BMW has an optional (and defeatable) 'Automatic Stability/Skid Control', which will reduce engine power if it senses an impending loss of traction or a mismatch between front and rear tire rotation.
     
  10. Spike

    Spike New Member

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    whether or not you have ABS has nothing to do with feeling the bike stop

    nearly always you should use both brakes for the shortest stops

    as for the dragging of the rear brake, if it is dragging than you have a problem, if what you are really talking about is the linked brakes, than the brakes are linked regardless of with ABS or no ABS

    as for breakdowns of the thousands of posts here, I don't recall even one about an ABS system breaking down, and if it did, you just have a non-ABS system
     
  11. Wabbit1961

    Wabbit1961 New Member

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    Regarding a few things that have been said...

    The You Tube video - the reason the non-ABS bike slid sideways is that too much rear brake was applied and the rear tire broke loose to the side, making the rider counter steer the front wheel in order to stay upright. If he had not locked up the rear tire, the bike would have stopped in a straight line. Braking distance can't be all that acurate since I believe those were two different bikes, and you don't even know if the tires are the same, new, old, or if the riders even weigh the same... poor video in my opinion. it really only proves what I said earlier, that ABS is really only best for straight line stopping at best. but a skilled rider can stop just as well as a rider with a bike with ABS. KNOW YOUR BIKE'S LIMITATIONS! Don't overdrive a motorcycle in bad weather conditions to begin with.Hitting the twisties can be a lot of fun, but I NEVER pushed my bike beyond what it or I can do. All it takes is a grain of dirt or sand on a turn while you lean over and you can kiss it godbye. Want to go nuts? Go to a sanctioned track. Then if you crash, you know it's all your fault!

    RedRover - in #2 I believe you are misguided. I am sorry, but even during the MSF basic course they MAKE you lock up the rear in a straight line braking situation. If you release the brake the bike immediately rights itself. It follows the front wheel. As long as you keep that straight, the rear wheel will right itself to the front and you will return to a straight path. You're not going to slide the rear tire out if you are only applying the front brake, which activates ony one set of pads on the rear. Conversely, you're not going to lock the front brake up on the VFR if you hit the rear too hard either, unless possibly you hit it hard in a turn and then that can be MAYBE enough to lock the front for a moment. In that case quickly letting off the rear will unlock the front and then re-apply the rear brake. If you're stomping on your brakes that hard, you don't know what you're doing. In a corner if you brake the rear too much... kiss yer ass bye-bye.... get ready for a side-out slide, ABS or not.
     
  12. supervfr

    supervfr Banned

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    It is imposible for ANY human being to be able to brake beter than a mechanical device.
    period...

    An abs system will stop and start the brakes hundreds of times per minute. The human foot simply is not capable of this.

    asside from that abs has sensors that detect when the wheel starts slipping and can react in a fraction of a second. It is simply not possible for the human body to do this. you cannot feel through a mechine without an implant, and even then its still very curde.

    Anyone with any sence will tell you that abs can stop any vehicle much faster than the human body can.
     
  13. Spectre

    Spectre New Member

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    Wabbit,

    Thank you for your input. I now realize that my words did not differentiate between the BRC's classroom instruction vs. the course's slow-speed range exercises. Rather, what I was trying to refer to was the classroom instruction, which is based on the book The Motorcycle Safety Foundation's Guide to Motorcycling Excellence, 2nd Edition.

    In Chapter 9 ('Special Situations') pp. 105-106 discusses 'Controlling Skids' in real-world situations, and I quote the following excerpts from the text:

    "...Rear wheel skids are more common during sudden, maximum braking...during deceleration (due to braking force) much of the load on the rear wheel transfers to the front wheel, decreasing the amount of traction available to the rear tire, making it easier for the rear wheel to lose traction and stop spinning (skid)...Every braking situation is unique, depending on the geometry and mass of the motorcycle involved, the road surface, the tires, and the speed. It's difficult to recommend one ideal solution to every rear wheel skid...However, the key to safely recovering from a rear-wheel skid is gauging the alignment of the bike's wheels and anticipating the effect that alignment will have if the braking dynamic is changed...As a rule of thumb, the farther out-of-line the rear wheel is relative to the front wheel, and the greater the momentum...the more sensitive the situation is... For example, if under hard braking from highway speed the rear wheel skids and becomes substantially out-of-line ("sliding out"), then suddenly regaining traction on the rear wheel (by releasing the rear brake pedal) can have dire consequences. Upon regaining rear-wheel traction, the momentum of the now-sideways motorcycle can force it to quickly straighten up and "high-side", or crash by falling over in the direction of the skid... If you find yourself in this situation, keep the rear wheel locked (skidding) until the motorcycle has come to a complete stop. Try to relax--the rear wheel may "fish-tail" a bit while skidding, but by looking well ahead to maintain a straight-ahead path, you are likely to be able to bring the motorcycle to a stop without falling victim to a 'high-side" crash... You should only consider releasing the rear brake in the event of a rear-wheel skid at low speeds if the motorcycle is nearly upright with the front and rear wheels nearly aligned."
     
  14. Wabbit1961

    Wabbit1961 New Member

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    RedRover

    The key to that whole paragraph is the phrase about when the rear tire becomes 'substantially out of line'. It's my contention that if you find yourself substantially out of line when you're trying simply to break in a straight line, that you have a heavy right foot and no sense of when the tire breaks loose at all. The tire should not become substantially out of line, no matter what speed you apply the rear break. If it breaks loose in the slightest you should let off the break immediately, and the bike will right itself.

    Another quote from your manual - 'the key to safely recovering from a rear-wheel skid is gauging the alignment of the bike's wheels and anticipating the effect that alignment will have if the braking dynamic is changed...As a rule of thumb, the farther out-of-line the rear wheel is relative to the front wheel, and the greater the momentum...the more sensitive the situation is... '

    The KEY is gauging your situation and KNOWING how much or little to correct for your predicament for it to become survivable.

    Hell, I've had times where I KNEW I was screwed. The course of action was to gauge correctly and minimize HOW screwed. I've low-sided a bike before because I knew I had no other way to survive an accident and survive with minmal personal injury (actually, I got up and walked away, and the bike was totalled... I slid safely off to the side and stopped before my bike did, but I controlled the low-sided and held on to the last possible moment to control where the bike ended up.)

    It boils down to experience, period. Newbies crash because of lack of ride time and experience. I always say it's fun, AND beneficial to take the Advanced MSF course, even if you have taken it before. Refreshing by taking such a course only reinforces and re-embeds techniques you rarely have to use, easily forgot.
     
  15. HondaTech

    HondaTech New Member

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    I'm gonna take an MSF course in the spring- I have been riding since last spring and passed the endorsement test and so forth and am wondering if I should bother with the beginner course or go straight to the advanced one?
     
  16. ZEN biker

    ZEN biker New Member

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    true the abs system applies and releases the breaks hundreds of times a second but it does it at maximum breaking effort, humans how ever can adjust the breaking potential as the tire breaks loose.
    This is know as feathering the breaks and in my own opinion should be learned as a second nature skill as ABS though helpfull (and i did buy the ABS intercepter) can make things worse. I would not buy a new bike if it didnt have the ABS as it has already proven its worth to my via school of hardknocks. But proper breaking methods and understanding will make the system work better leaving that paint job you like in good condition.

    We all use one break at times so linked breaking makes sense to me. It helps provide a smoother stop and increases your friction coefficient from one tire to two tires worth. And lets face it, the amount of ruber on the pavement is less than the surface area of a letter sized envelopes single side(approx 4" x 8.5"). Id hate to have less if i didnt need it.

    If you dont understand it then dont say you hate it, or its a waste of 11lbs, or its useless. And then try to back up your claim with bad youtube vids or poor understanding of the applied physics. If the system didnt work then they woudnt use it, the automotive (this includes bikes) industry has thousands of ideas that failed over the years and we dont see them because they made things worse.

    to those who have been riding longer than Ive been alive, congrats on making it this far, but I hope you will smack anyone who says this stuff is useless or makes no difference. Chances are your here because someone else had these technogies.

    BTW cars and trucks have had linked and balanced breaking systems since the late 40's( as per my '47 fargo half ton) and ABS came into play in the mid 90's and as a standard in the early 2000's
     
  17. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Member

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    +1 abs is a great option, but never rely on it. i personally would forgo the 11 or 14 lbs. what ever it is.
     
  18. Coyote3

    Coyote3 New Member

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    Last year I was riding a little too close to the car in front of me (my fault), and the car in front of that car abruptly put on it's brakes and decided to make a right turn, which made the car in front of me slam on it's brakes, which made me slam on my brakes. The road wasn't the cleanest (had some dirt, gravel....very little) but the ABS on the front wheel kicked in. I actually didn't realize it was that it kicked in until after I rode away. It was a small shutter, just like in a car. I was going rather slow (under 35), so the distance that the ABS had to work wasn't too far, but I am glad the front wheel didn't lock up.

    I think if I weighed 11-14 pounds less it would help.:biggrin:
     
  19. Lgn001

    Lgn001 Member

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    The only argument I would throw in here is that if you have multiple bikes, and only one has ABS, reacting in an ABS fashion on a non-ABS bike could be... problematic in a panic situation.

    If you only have one bike, ABS makes sense.
     
  20. teksdailyride

    teksdailyride New Member

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    i was riding my 07 rwb w/abs up in suches and came in a lil to fast but was able to bring my speed down enough to just tag the gaurd rail and ride home. and i know that i wouldnt have been able to stop like that on other bikes that ive ridden. so my vote is for abs.
     
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