1994 RVF400R Build Project

Discussion in 'Mechanics Garage' started by NorcalBoy, Nov 7, 2018.

  1. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    Thanks for the heads up, Oz! I will do a test when I get the moto back together and I'll post the results of the test here. In the meantime, I'll take heed of your experience and order up a couple of each color, they aren't very expensive.....just in case. The ones I have in hand are 120* spreads, no pin point led on the tip.

    Congrats on the new ST, she looks to be in very nice knick!

    Edit: Ordered up some amber and green 194's for the idiot lights, already had the reds and blues. Thanks again for the heads up, Oz. Always good to be prepared.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
  2. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    Went and picked up the new foam dash surrounds from the water jet folks today. They turned out pretty decent.

    Comparison of the old, on the left, and the new white and black pieces that were cut. They are a complex piece for being what it is, so I wasn't exactly sure how they would work out. I'm good with how they turned out.

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    Went to Robb's shop and test fit a couple, so far the charcoal color is what I've decided on, the white seemed like a little bit too much white, I'll refit the white when I get the new faceplates installed to revisit it again and make sure.

    Test fit:

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    Robb has been super busy working on some parts for Kyle Wyman's 2020 MotoAmerica bikes. He should get around to finishing the machining of the new pins and the housing, as soon as he's done with that. Carbon bezel covers from Tyga Performance are set to arrive tomorrow, after being held up in customs for 4 days. When they arrive, I'll take a couple pics and add them to this thread. Superbright LED's shipped the amber, green, and a couple extra blue LED's for the dash today, should be here by Friday.

    Mike Norman started disassembling the engine today to begin the build process and to figure out what may have caused the oil pressure loss. So far I have not heard from him as to what he found when the engine was stripped down. No news is good news, at this point.

    Did a flyby at Restocycle to check in with Nils and the boys to see what they were currently working on. They have about six CBX restoration and repair projects in various stages of completion. Those guys do excellent work and I'm looking forward to competing against them in next years 520 Moto Alliance bike show https://520motoalliance.org/ Was trying for this year, but there is no way I will get everything done before then. So it looks like they will walk away with all the hardware again this year. Nils was gracious and hooked me up with a nice etched whiskey glass and a tooled leather key chain.

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    I'll try to post up some pics of the bezel covers when I get them in hand.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
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  3. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    Carbon bezel covers showed up from Thailand, so I went to ye olde PO Box and grabbed them. I haven't test fit them yet, as the instrument cluster is at another location, but my initial impression is that they are pretty decent. I checked concentricity and uniformity and they appear to be pretty good in both respects....just hope they actually fit :Laugh: I have had issues with carbon parts in the past, and they usually require a certain amount of "massaging" to get the perfect fit, some a lot worse than others. Some have had to be tossed, as they were never going to mount up correctly. Fingers crossed there is no dickfoolery required with these, as there isn't much massaging you can do to these.

    The OEM bezels are a little bit weathered, and the speedo bezel has a small knick in it, so these should make everything look tidy and complete the resto. I now have all the little bits and pieces and just need the fabrication part completed so I can send them in for the faceplate replacement, then it will be a quick deal to complete them and have them ready to go.

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    I'm going to attach them with a couple drops of this, to make sure they stay put:

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    I have used this stuff before and it is an excellent silicone adhesive that has great adhesion, but remains pliable, so you can peal it off, should you choose to do that.

    So far no word from Mike Norman on any catastrophic damage to the engine components that was discovered during tear down. I suspect I would have heard from Mike, if anything was seriously damaged, as it would have been an extra to get it fixed, but I won't know for sure, until he touches base with me. I told him I would touch base in a week, or so, to get it completely disassembled, cleaned, and inspected, and that was on Monday. I really want to know what happened to it, kinda driving me a little crazy for the past nine months.
     
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  4. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    Got a message from Mike Norman at G-Force. He didn't get back from Boston until last night, but he uncrated the engine this afternoon and already has the heads removed...Mike is saying everything looks good, so far. No spun bearings, no scored cams, no piston contact with the head, nothing out of the ordinary....

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    Now if I can dodge a bullet on the main bearings, I'll be home free....but my suspicion has always been the mains. Time will tell.
     
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  5. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    Well the hammer just dropped, but it missed my head, sorta :Fear:

    Mike found the loss of the oil pressure, and it was what I kind of expected....the crank is destroyed on two journals and it ate the bearings. I had budgeted extra cash, for exactly this. But, I have lucked out...an OEM crank is $1000, but they are no longer available...as luck would have it, Mike Norman has a new crank for me, for the good guy price of +/- $500...so there is a silver lining to this and now I know what caused the problem. Luckily, I had budgeted an additional $2k, and now I won't need it all....the leftover is now going into the new CRF450L rat hole. When life gives you lemons, mix them with vodka.

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    So the build is still on track, and I have a new set of 4 ashtrays and a giant paper weight to show for it so far :Laugh: More info to come when I have it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
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  6. raYzerman

    raYzerman Member

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    In the old (automotive) days, one could turn the crank and install u/size bearings..... doubt they are available for bikes as I've never seen any. Meanwhile $500 for a new crank is perty good!!

    If you're willing, could you give me OD and ID of the CF bezel pieces... I may want some if they fit a project of mine... thx.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
  7. Captain 80s

    Captain 80s Member

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    Relatively good news! Gonna be sweet man.
     
  8. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    Mike just sent over a picture, he just pulled the crank out of his personal stash...

    [​IMG]

    Mike Norman is a SAVIOR!
     
  9. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    It's good news all around, I now know the cause of the pressure loss, and I know it isn't going to crush me, or the project. I am STOKED right now. I also know all of the other parts are fine and that it's just a matter of following through with the original plan.
     
  10. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    Turning them down is an option...if you have enough material to do it. The bearings come in three sizes, but it's a puzzle made up of what type of crankcases you have, what numbers you have on the crank weights, and the main bearing I.D. code...which is a color, green, yellow, or brown. These bearings are no longer available from Honda. The only person that has these bearings, not coincidentally, is Mike Norman...the guy doing the engine build. Mike went to the original bearing manufacturer in Japan, Daido Metal, and spent $15,000 of his own money, to have the bearings reproduced to OEM Honda specs.

    I talked to Mike about welding and regrinding the crankshaft to repair the bad journals, but he didn't recommend it, based on his experience. Welding up the journals on the crankshaft and having them reground, weakens the metal structure and then they have a tendency to break, with the stress increase from the increased HP, and the 14,500 rpm red line, it really wasn't an option. The welding and regrinding would have been a similar cost, for an inferior part.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
  11. Diving Pete

    Diving Pete Member

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    Thats awesome news... so back together next week then - LOLOLOLOLOL
     
  12. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    Hahahahahaha, not exactly, Mr. Pete. The estimate was 3 months originally, but there are two engines in front of me that need to get done before the AFM season starts. The current estimate is about 4 months. By sending it now, Mike has three sets of engine components, so it cut the cost for all of us, from what it would have been for doing only one set of components at a time. Mike is generous enough to pass that along to all of us. After sitting for so long and talking about it, it's just good to have closure on what actually happened and that everything is moving in a positive direction again. He keeps telling me that it will all be worth it when I see it on the dyno.
     
  13. Captain 80s

    Captain 80s Member

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    Hell yes. {wrings hands together while salivating}
     
  14. KarlR

    KarlR New Member

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    Glad your waiting for answers is over and the results are good. Great pics as usual, thanks for passing them on. Sounds like you have the right person working on your engine. At least you have other bikes to ride during the four month wait.
     
  15. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    There are three guys in the world that are recognized as the most knowledgeable and experienced VFR/RVF400 dudes. Two, of those three, are in the UK, Graeme France and Rick Oliver. In the US, Mike Norman is the only one. Mike is the current engine development engineer for Saleen, and previously he was an engine development engineer for Honda's IndyCar and sportscar efforts. He only does a few of these engines a year, when he has time available. He's a busy guy, but very responsive and always willing to answer any questions.

    I have had quite a bit of contact with Rick. I've bought quite a few bits from him, he's a great person and has always been willing to help me out when I had a question. I attempted to contact Graeme France early on, he never responded. If that's how you play it, you can forget about me trying twice, or spending a cent of money with you. I don't care how many excuses DivingPete has to defend you, rofl.

    Rick told me to go to Mike, PERIOD. I have been building a working relationship with Mike since July of 2019. Mike has put up a lot of his own money to make sure that discontinued parts are still available, but he told me that the Cosworth piston deal almost cost him his marriage, so he won't be spending anymore of his own money. What he has, is all that's left. After this, you better bring a lot of money, or you're out of luck. I got one of the last three 428cc, HRC spec, piston, ring, and long rod sets that he had in stock.

    Timing is everything. I had always planned to do something with the engine down the road, which never could have happened if the bottom end hadn't let go. Fate intervened and I'm actually glad that it happened. Is it easy to justify the financial side? Prolly not. But moto builds are what I enjoy doing, so fuck it.

    Below is the engine that started my addiction to V4 Honda's...my 2006 VTEC 800 engine build project. I learned a lot about V4 engine building from Patrick Ho of Performance Concepts in the Bay Area. He took a lot of time to teach me the ins and outs of engine building, letting me do a lot of the hands on work to build it. Unfortunately, he suffered a serious health issue a couple years ago and isn't doing what he used to do. Having Mike Norman to fill that gap is perfect.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
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  16. Diving Pete

    Diving Pete Member

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    if you were looking at another 800 to work on would you choose the 5th or 6th gens...
     
  17. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    Already did the 6g, and the VTEC at that. Won't bother with the 5g. I prefer the 6g over the 5g. Too heavy and hard to get decent aftermarket parts for them now. If I spend another 30-35 g's, it will be on something different. Haven't worked on an inline 4 in a long time. I'll make sure I start with something new, it helps keep the cost down, believe it or not. Getting a dual sport first and I'll putz with that a little.
     
  18. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    Making more progress on the gauge restoration front. Test fit the new carbon bezel covers and they fit fine. They will definitely need to be glued down with the silicone adhesive to make them solid.

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    Robb has finished up the cad file for the new aluminum pins for the foam surround and plans to run them on the CNC lathe on Monday or Tuesday.

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    These will work great to hold the foam, give it a modernized look, and to repair the original damaged pins. Once the pins are installed and everything checks out, the clusters are headed to the speedo/tach folks to get the faceplates. installed...almost there.
     
  19. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    Mike Norman sent me a few more pictures of the carnage today....some critical wounds to the bottom end

    All four mains were destroyed, well beyond destroyed, actually

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    Close up of the obliterated crank main journals

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    Another closeup of one of the mains

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    The cases were sent out out for blasting, deburring, and matching. Once they come back, everything will be measured and confirmed. Once all the measurements check out, the cases will be sent off to have the mains line honed and the cylinders will be bored to accept the larger 57mm Cosworth pistons, after that, cryo treating.

    After continuing the discussion of the possible cause(s) of the catastrophic damage, it is appearing, more and more, like the bottom end was rebuilt at some point, and incorrectly sized bearings were used, possibly Chinese, or the crank was turned down, thus removing the hard facing off the journals and exposing the softer metal, or both.

    This won't be happening this time around. The oil pump has been meticulously inspected and measured and all of the tolerances are excellent and there are no obstructions in any of the oil passages. Onward and upward.
     
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  20. Terry Smith

    Terry Smith Member

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    Sorry to hear about the bearings and crank, but no more internal mysteries for you!

    My only experience of this was back in the 80's, riding a CBX750F borrowed from my Honda dealer employer; that decided to eat its main bearings while I was enjoying a leisurely Sunday ride. Glad it wasn't mine, it's a sickening sound and feeling.
     
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