10 hours labor for a valve check?

Again, sticky valves are not the concern here, that's a whole different and unrelated problem. When discussing the topic of checking valve clearance "they" say "it's the tight valves you have to worry about", they are talking about valves that have less than specified tappet clearance which is caused by worn valve seats, not sticky valves from improper storage. The valve itself is not tight or sticking in it's bore, but the clearance between the cam and follower is too small. This can be caused by a number of things, and if it's not corrected it will get exponentially worse and eventually lead to loss of compression. If you catch this early enough and reset the clearances, you will be preventing the associated burnt valve and loss of compression. If you let it go, you will be setting yourself up for a complete valve job which I assure you is far more expensive than an adjustment.

I'm not saying this is likely to happen, I'm just trying to explain the difference. I don't plan on checking my valve clearances... ever. I don't think it's necessary, at least not until ~50k miles, and I'll be dead before I put that many miles on mine. I also have a spare engine with good heads.

 

A little networking might pay off to get those valves adjusted. IMO the shop is quoting what the book says. Pro wrenches many times figure out how to beat the book. Got a 91 VFRF that has been into a dealership just once. That was for the 600 mile check which is mostly BS if you look closely.

There are all sorts of bike gigs that go on even in small towns. It's EZ to just go to a stealer/dealer and get hosed if ya have plenty of bucks to burn.

Before anyone gets all out of shape about how this somehow screws some poor dealership wrench out of his three hots and a cot, Corner one sometime and compare what he is getting an hour and what the shop rate is.

 

You're right...sometimes you can beat the book. When GL1800's came out, Honda was paying close to 2 hours warrany for replacing a headlight bulb under warranty, assuming fairing removal was necessary. Come to find out, you could easily do the dims in about 5 minutes (highs a little longer), by simply reaching under the fairing.

On recalls and product updates (something techs do repeatedly), it's not unusual to beat the flat rate. You do so many you can do it easily without even thinking.

Honda did not sell huge amounts of Vtec VFR's...i'd be willing to bet many techs have never done a clearance adjustment on one. To top that off, you're working with tiny parts that can be dropped in bad places, and the work requires some real thought on what you're doing. On those kind of jobs that you do so infrequently, it's highly unlikely you're gonna make the flat rate. In my case, I'd rather spend the extra time, double check things and not have to do it twice.

 

Measure twice, cut once.

Part of this overall problem is who is betwixt and between the customer and the wrench. The dealer is looking at the bottom line. The service manager answers to the dealer and the poor fucking customer at times unless he or she insists never sees or talks to the wrench.

Many of these service checks are not much more than the loss leaders we all see from outfits that run ads for lube jobs on cars for $9.95 and next thing ya know some sales type with hands like a dude in a beauty parlor is telling you unless you get the "recommended" work done right away all your children will die in a fiery crash because your air filter is a little less than perfect.

This is may be why the Romans came up with "Caveat Emptor" I think in about 59.

59 BC that is..

 

lol my dealer said to wait until it starts making noise then bring it in. Apparently th VTEC engine has a very good survivablity ratio. they have "heard" of a couple that had short lives of 45k kms but not to worry too much.

All dealer tools can be bought from your dealer, so you can get the tensioner tool if you want it.....you may not like the price though.
If your dealer wont sell you the tools then talk to another dealer, they generaly add 20% to their cost for the tool

 

You don't need the tensioner tool...a very small screwdriver will fit nicely. I prefer to completely remove the tensioners as I think it allows a little more slack on the cam chain to remove and reinstall the cam sprockets. When it comes time to reinstall the tensioners I just release the tension with the small screwdriver while tightening the mounting bolts, then pull out the screwdriver. You can almost always reuse the tensioner paper gaskets, but it may not be a bad idea to have a couple sitting around just in case.

For the Vtecs...you DO need the special little pucks to disable the Vtec lifters (as someone mentioned earlier).

I agree Badbilly...I really prefer to talk to the customer. The service writers most often don't know what questions to ask. Lack of communication is a big problem at dealerships. Regarding first services and such, most bikers aren't as conscientious as the readers of this forum. It's common for bikes to come in for an oil change with loose, rusty chains and flat tires...alot of people need to service their bikes. However, I don't think it's fair to charge a 'mint' for a service that may take an hour.

 

We had a service manager in my hood that did know which questions to ask and could do the work too. The local stealership "let him go" for being too slow. That particular stealer is now OOB.

In a prior post I said my bike was into a dealer once. Whoops..I had some tires mounted at a dealer once too. Me and the tire dude had a brief chat even though the counter kid thought that was a mite strange. He ain't seen strange yet.

 

I have the VFR serviced at Honda's recommended service intervals. No adjustments have been necessary.

BTW, some dealers screw up, so be careful. A "bargain" service may not be the best. I took my bike to a big Honda dealer in PDX to buy a new front tire. The mechanic flipped my right rotor when he bolted it back up. The pad dragged and the rotor warped! Oh, and the mechanic dinged the fuel tank too. :-(

 

shop around to other dealers but yes its hi dollar to get them adjusted..700-800....i would do it myself on other bikes but the vtech special tools all cams out ..damn it might as well rebuild whole top end..port heads..anyhoo...i would ask to watch mech do the work.?? and also talk to the head mechanic there and ask how many 6th gens have they done the valve adjustment too.... good luck.after all the pain see how far they were out? maybe you could go further.. i baby my bike so i figure until it starts running a little weak i'll go to about 20k before the big bill comes..

 

The ONLY special tools you need are the 'pucks' and a shop manual is highly recommended. Aside from 'disabling' the vtec lifters with the 'pucks' (which the shop manual explains in very good detail), it's really no different from any other shim/under DOHC valve adjustment procedure. It's more time consuming because the cams on each bank must come out and be retimed at least twice...three times if you need to adjust and want to verify the replacement shim is now the correct clearance. It's actually easier to see the timing marks on the cams than it is on some other bikes where the frame gets in the way...like certain CBR's.

As much as I understand the customer wanting to watch...I'd say it's better to find a tech you trust, then leave 'em alone to do their job. It can be really distracting for some techs to have someone watching...it's like a jinx. Either it stresses 'em out, or you end up getting into a real interesting conversation. Although that's pleasant enough, you want the guy to focus on the task at hand. I'd say it would be better to make a brief showing at the crucial moment...then you get to see the work is being done...look at the parts, etc...and you're no longer just a number on a repair order to the tech...everybody wins.

 

Wanting to watch in a dealership shop is going to IMO, fall flat with a resounding thud. Even the best wrenches screw up and can be distracted by some dude hovering and relating anecdotes about his cat Fluffy and his 400 lb SO who just caused his swing arm bearings to crap out.


We are not even going to mention insurance since almost everyone can read the signs.

 

I just stopped in to the Action Honda in Hudson, FL for a couple minor parts (fasteners for the battery cover on my 2006 Interceptor).

I asked the service manager how much the valve adjustment would be and he quoted me $408 plus tax out the door. He said that included the shims. He also said they really don't need to be shimmed a lot of the time.

He also said he'd rather listen to the bike first and see if it even needed a valve adjustment. I told him I hadn't had it adjusted at all and I have over 25,000 miles on it. He said that's typical for the 6th gen to go that far without an adjustnment. He recommended I bring it in at 30,000 miles. He also said a valve job's pretty much an all day affair. No sweat.

I also asked if they had done many of them and he said his mechanic owns one and has done about a dozen aside from his own. He stated that with loose valves you'll hear the ticking (mine doesn't tick at all), and that tight valves give you a clue when the bike is warmed up - they will smoke out the back a bit, and the engine hesitates a bit, causing it not to idle totally smooth. He says it sounds like a knock in the engine at idle, Again, mine doesn't smoke or knock at all.

I'll be bringing it to them when the time comes. For that price it's a no-brainer.

 

Good for you...sounds like a fair price, and an experienced tech.

I don't really buy the 'I can tell by listening' stuff though. That part sounds like he's talking out his 'kiester'.

 

Does this mean that the pro wrenches can shitcan thier stethescopes? Seems like this is a problem most easily solved by a buttplug or a dose of Lomatil.

 

Well...I guess I'm not dissin the service manager...the same positiion at my workplace makes a similar claim, and he just doesn't know or understand. He makes the claim I can tell by listening, too.

When you're working with single cylinder ATV's...an educated ear can tell they're obviously loose. To be honest, with the kind of 'solid lifter' head used on recent VFR's, GL's, CBR's...I haven't found loose clearance related to 'ticks' in the engine. What I'm sayin' is even when the clearance is quite loose they're still pretty quite. Some of these models DO have a noticable 'tick' at idle...but I haven't found valve clearance to be the fix. Most cases it's just normal engine noise.

As for 'clues' as to when the valves are too tight. If you wait 'til the point when tight clearance actually effects the way the engine runs as described...you're really playing with 'fire' and it might be too late for an adjustment to help. Fortunately, exhaust clearance specs are SO loose (I think around .012 inches), it's not likely you're EVER gonna see one so tight as to actually be held open. For comparison, early 80's air cooled DOHC engines the spec was .002 - 005...and on those you did run into a burnt exhaust valve once in awhile.

 

There are service managers and then there are service managers. Some of them should be selling used cars somewhere West of the Pecos, or did just before they hired on.. We had one guy at a local Honda dealer that could outwrench any wrench on the floor. He got canned for being too slow. The dealership is OOB..

I have a Yamaha SR500. The valves get tight. I can hear it. Takes about maybe ten minutes to adjust all those valves... Got a set of Krauser heads on a BMW. The adjusters are essentially rollers.
A wrench with bucket over or under shim experience can hear things going on in an engine that the average dude can't. Best deal here is to find somebody like that, that is trustworthy and stick with them.

 

I couldn't agree more. Trouble is, finding one. I actually have two that I trust to work on any and all of my bikes.