VF4iR - the project begins

After 2+ years of researching, studying, planning, (and yes reading VFRW posts of other similar upgrades), I'm finally plunging into the F4i front end swap, including de-linking and removing the LBS systems. The F4i uses 43mm forks and have full damping, the VTEC also uses 43mm forks. The rotors are the same diameter, so the calipers align radially, tho' they are NOT the same part/part number.

The bike: 2001 VFR, currently with 40K mi. Hyperpro Shock and springs, FPR upgrade, Remus Ti, BMC filter, Dual-Star heated grips, among some of them.

I love the bike but the front suspension and single-acting calipers are just weak. I grew up on bikes with separate braking so losing the LBS is NBD.

I want stronger brakes, and adjustable damping - period.

There are several advantages for doing this particular swap: A VTEC triple is a drop-in swap for the 5G triple; the F4i forks are 5mm shorter than the 5G forks; the entire 5G wheel assembly fits into the new fork assembly with slightly longer spacers made to take up the 3mm distance difference; same axle; F4i calipers line up with the rotors with standard 1.5mm SS washers between the caliper and the fork mount; Best Of All - there are *lots* of F4i parts available for short money on ebay.
So I started gathering parts:
Forks, $250.
Complete F4i brake system $50. (calipers and master)
F4i rear master $25. (see Mello-dude's de-linking writeup which was my final motivator to moving ahead with this.)
VTEC handlebars $70.

The forks have been rebuilt with custom valving and Hypero springs for a VTEC, the progressive rate is a little stiffer than the 5G rate.

Since it's at the 40K mark, I just checked the valve clearances - all were within spec, which was a nice surprise, considering I've done 6 or 7 track days with it in the last 4 years. I do run it hard. So far, the only project creep will be the removal and blanking of the PAIR valves.

I'll get some pics up sometime soon (like, after Christmas...), but I think it's going to be a nice project and improved ride.

Who else is doing crazy upgrades this winter ?

Scott

 

Sorry to have been so long w/o updating my first post. I've accomplished a lot of the swap and I've taken mucho pics, but for some reason the pics won't load here. I'll try one now and see what happens (If it doesn't show up, anyone is welcome to offer suggestions on how to load pics into a post. I've read and followed the FAQ, no love... I'm using a Mac with iPhoto .jpgs but that shouldn't matter.)

Here's the makeshift bench I set up to fit and measure the forks, wheel, and calipers.
http://vfrworld.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5895&stc=1&d=1231116586

As mentioned in the first post, after the spacers were made, everything fit beautifully.
I removed the front calipers and connecting hoses and here's the real kicker: The VFR LBS brake components weigh over 7 POUNDS! That's seven pounds of unsprung weight that must be levered back and forth! I'll get the final numbers tomorrow, but I think the F4i calipers are about 1 pound each!

The rotors are being Blanchard ground to even the surface for the wider F4i brakes pads.
The VFRs are 83L x 28W, the F4is are 74L x 42W. This is approx. 33% greater brake pad area coupled with 4 piston calipers. Braking should not be an issue!

I'm going to stop here to see if the one pic I loaded shows up in the post. If not, oh well, I'll just write a thousand words or so...

Scott

 

This should be an interesting swap, yes please do keep us informed. Oh just to be clear, you are doing this swap with the 01 Vfr?

 

Excellent. Sort of. I was hoping to have the pic(s) in full size within the text, but this will do.
Other pics to catch up:
Alignment of caliper to rotor, conveniently using the caliper seam to center.
http://vfrworld.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5896&stc=1&d=1231119651

Front and rear PAIR valve block-off plates (TPO Parts):
http://vfrworld.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5897&stc=1&d=1231120042
http://vfrworld.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5898&stc=1&d=1231120042

If you're going to bleed your own brakes, especially the LBS, I highly recommend investing
in one of these:
http://vfrworld.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5899&stc=1&d=1231120515
I could bleed the LBS in 1 hour.

The rear brake master cylinder swap to an F4i was much easier than I expected. Shorten the rod and drill out the threads on the top mount.
I connected both brake lines to the master using the existing double banjo bolt - done.
http://vfrworld.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5900&stc=1&d=1231120840
http://vfrworld.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5901&stc=1&d=1231121002

Last one for tonight. Just what I always wanted: A VFR Flattracker!
http://vfrworld.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5902&stc=1&d=1231121191

More when I get more done. Oh, and for RVFR, yes this is an '01 5G.

Scott

 

Ah very good, Mm, you might try a Photo bucket account, that way you can cut and paste like this.

 

To RVFR: Thanks for the pointer to Photobucket. I may try that, but it irks me no end that I can't C&P from iPhoto into the post.

Mello dude et al: Glad to see you here! Yea, the rear mod is pretty sweet and simple.
And for you, and others contemplating this, I worked out the ratios of the master-to-pistons of the VFR vs. the F4i Master cylinder swap, it was the only way I could wrap my head around it. In summary detail it reads like this:
The VFR rear master moves 4 pistons, 2 Fr, 2 Rr. with a ratio of 7.192:1
The F4i rear master (will) move 3 pistons with a ratio of 7.4388:1. Only slightly more powerful.
However, if you're comparing just the rear brake ratios, it's more than double (3.37:1).
The real feel will be when I ride it.

In reading the LBS Technical sheets in the SM, the rear pedal is pressure-progressive to the front pistons, so light pressure barely engages the middle pistons - a good thing to know if you're on dirt roads and need to use JUST the rear brake.

One nice thing about doing this over the winter, the feeling of "normal" braking will be gone, so relearning the feel will be somewhat easier. At least that's what I tell myself.

More later,
Scott

 

Quick Update: I just weighed the stock VFR front brake assembly; calipers, connecting hoses and junction: 8.4 POUNDS !!
Both F4i calipers weigh 4.2 pounds ... 'nuf said.
Scott

 

Backing Up then Catching Up:
In my first post I detailed the length differences between the VFR and the F4i as 5 mm. That's not entirely correct as I found out. When I first started measuring the forks for fit,
it was over a year ago and I was borrowing a friends' F4 spare front end (racers have spare everything). The F4 ('99-'00) forks are indeed 795 mm in length to the VFR's 800 mm (funny that). The F4i forks are 785 mm. The end result is that the fork tubes sit about 10 mm below the handlebar top edge, but more than enough for the bolt to clamp, the handlebar-to-fork mount being 33 mm in height.

A couple of weeks ago I picked up the rotors from being ground. The VFR rotors start out at 4.5 mm in thickness and minimum thickness as stamped on the carrier is 3.5 mm. I had measured a couple of lows at 4.18 before grinding. When I picked them up they were now down to 3.7-3.8 mm - much lower than I'd anticipated them being after grinding. They look fine and probably would be for another 40k miles, until I went rotor-researching-pricing last week. EBC has some Pro-Lites available from Powersport Superstore.com at $168. apiece.
EBC Brakes | X & XC Series - Fully Floating Front Disc/Rotor | Ultra Lightweight Perfect For Street and Racing Use

I couldn't say no.

Still waiting for delivery, but they should be very cool.

A few years ago I had Galfer make me a set of braided, coated brake lines for the front, so I expected to use them again. Except, the shorter of the two was now perfect for the left, longer side, and the longer length was 7 inches too long. So I sent it off to Galfer to have it shortened for $20. and it was returned in less than a week! Fits perfect.

So now I have a clean, uncluttered by brake lines, front end:
http://vfrworld.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6047&stc=1&d=1232419634

And a much cleaner and lighter fork and caliper (old rotors):
http://vfrworld.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6048&stc=1&d=1232419634

And a mock up tease with body work:
http://vfrworld.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6049&stc=1&d=1232419634

Besides the rotors, I'm waiting for my shock rebuild from EPM Performance (epmperf.com) before starting on the rear caliper cleaning. Air filter is done.
<looks outside at 3 ft of snow>
maybe I'll do the clutch springs now...

More later,
Scott

 

Sounds like the greatest project!I respect your perserverance and intensity.I guess I'm lazy,just working...Your an inspriration.VFR love is what's it all about.F4ayeeee

 

Catching Up ...

Well much has happened and progressed in the last month. After finishing the install of the front end and rotors and brakes, it was wait,wait,wait, for EPM to send back my re-valved Hyperpro. Once that was installed, I could start on the sprocket and chain replacements, and rear caliper bleeding and install.
Here's the completed front end with the new EBC rotors:
(see followup post)
Look Ma, no hoses!
(see followup post)

The shock finally arrives and installed the same night:
VFRworld

The shock has been lengthened by 4mm MAX! the '00 and '01 are limited by the cat
converter, so the swingarm link has about .015" clearance:
VFRworld

Before I tore into the sprockets and chain, I decided to peek at the rear drive. I've been somewhat unhappy with the "drag" on the free wheel spin, it just doesn't feel like it spins freely. Thoughts: something binding in the eccentric axle housing; worn bearing(s); uhh, I dunno, but it's February, snow and cold, so let's look. The axle nut has to be unstaked, or more correctly, undimpled before the 46mm socket will loosen.
I've done this before. And as I warned with a previous post to all SSA owners, one needs to watch out for a loosening axle nut caused by worn/aged drive rubbers. As opposed to a regular swingarm bike, the axle isn't tightened into the cush drive when the wheel is replaced. Add to that the left-right cornering forces and the front-back drive forces, the cush rubbers take a real beating (you know where this going don't you...).
So I removed the nut. I started tugging at the sprocket to pull off the center hub - nothing - no movement. I didn't want to pry it off from behind, it should just slide off the spline. Finally, a short 2x4 and a 5 lb. hammer drove the stub axle out far enough for me to pull it off by hand. This is what I found:
VFRworld
VFRworld

I couldn't really tell what caused the corrosive schmutz to be on there. I used naval jelly to loosen the heavy stuff and very fine 220 sanding screen to smooth out the rest. Meanwhile, the bearings were fine, but I added some Honda Moly to the needle bearing on the right side, and some on the splines, and on the shaft and cush hub mating surfaces.

So - when I pulled the cush hub off, I expected to see the rubbers still in place. They all fell out. What's more, they are supposed to be paired together with a rubber strip between them. All but one were broken. I ordered a set that night ($35.).
Here's a comparative of the old (bottom) and new rubbers. You can see how much the old ones have been compressed:
VFRworld

With the new rubbers in place, I had to *stand on the backing plate* (190 lbs) to push the plate into the cush drive. This goes a long way to make a smooth driveline and keep the chain from wearing prematurely. I'm so glad I did this extra work. I buttoned up the rear hub, cleaned the chain guide and installed the front sprocket:
VFRworld
VFRworld
VFRworld

(pics of the chain and rear sprocket next time).

Finally, I could get to the rear caliper. I attached the hoses and Mity-Vac'd the system. Full fluid coming out both bleeders, but I couldn't get any pedal pressure and only slightly saw one piston move. Double checked leaks, almost no air to speak of, just no pedal resistance. Finally I resigned to removing the MC and examining the innards - phhht! There was rust in the spring piston cup and at the base of the spring leading to the outlet. Not knowing for sure that it was/wasn't the MC, I ordered a rebuild kit two nights ago. This one was my fault for not checking it sooner, as it had been sitting for 2 years here with no fluid in it (pics later).
My brother is going to try to have a short-short hose made up to connect the two feed holes (they're 30 mm on center with a 10 mm offset). That would make this whole operation much easier. Mello Dude had the right approach with his horseshoe loop connector.

That's it for now. If everything keeps going this way, (including the winter and weather)
I should be ready to ride it by April.

Ciao,
Scott

 

Front end pics

(don't know why the pics didn't show correctly in the previous post).
http://vfrworld.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6458&stc=1&d=1235451223

Look Ma, no hoses!
http://vfrworld.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6459&stc=1&d=1235451277

Scott

 

Wow Scott, really nice write-up and detail. Keep up the good work!

 

congrats! Very good looking, and I'm sure it will handle bette.

 

:thumbsup: :tongue:

Keep up the good work Scott.

 

View the picture (where its stored) copy the link, click on the postcard/mountain button on the response pane, paste your link and wayla: PS any update?

 

Braking Point (sic) (yet another installment)

Thanks to all for the photo pointers, I'm approaching the end of this project so I think I can survive with the current process.

Let's see: I ordered a rebuild kit for the rear MC, and installed it the minute I got it - didn't even take pics! my apologies, but I'll be glad to re-enact the procedure and internals if anyone wants to see that operation. It's pretty straight-forward.

So after rebuilding the MC, I installed it and connected up both lines again and bled, and pumped, and pumped, and 10 minutes of that... this was not going to work. The little MC piston can't move enough fluid thru *both* brake lines to move all three pistons. Each brake line is 43 (count 'em) inches long! Hey - the front brake line collection has a convenient 6" connector line!! I pulled it apart and re-oriented the lines such that one line goes to the center piston, and the 6" jumps to the outer two pistons:



Five minutes later I had pressure at the pedal, 5 minutes after that the lines were bled of air and I had a nice feeling rear brake. I pulled one of the lines out so there's just a single line to the rear. The whole package in place:

http://vfrworld.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/15318

http://vfrworld.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/15312

Now - earlier in the project when I had the caliper conveniently sitting on the bench, I mocked up a possible short-short jumper which I might still get around to making, but it looked like this:

http://vfrworld.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/15316

At this point I'm reassembling the decorative stuff, chain guard and hugger (Pyramid).
Here's a quick and easy fix if you've ever taken your chain guard off and found out what a PIA it is to hold the stamped threaded plate underneath while trying to thread the screws in from the top (I did it once and said "Never again").

Drill a 1/8-3/16" hole thru the top of the chain guard to mate with a hole drilled in the threaded plate underneath. Rivet the plate in place from the top down - voila - plate stays in place while you attach the hold down clamps for the hoses:
http://vfrworld.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/15314
http://vfrworld.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/15313
http://vfrworld.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/15315

With the bike in gear and the rear brake locked, I cranked down on the rear hub nut (154 ft-lbs) and staked the nut to the axle stub slot:
http://vfrworld.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/15317

And finally the rear wheel returns to it's proper home and the bike stands on two wheels.
Hint! There's a clue in this pic of what I hope to be the piece de resistance of final assembly, see if you can find it !

http://vfrworld.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/15319

If the weather holds for this weekend I'm going to try and attach the tank and fire it up - Road Test! Woo Hoo!

Later for now,