Motorcycle dealer's mindset! (kinda long)

I have read with a certain interest and curiosity the posts regarding the desire of new riders to buy bikes beyond thier capabilities and what roles dealers might play in this. Not that didn't necessarily believe some of the posts, i just hadn't had the opportunity to witness it firsthand.
My wife passed the BRC and got her endorsment back in May and since then put about 5-600 miles on the VF500F I bought her. Well, she now thinks she's ready for an upgrade and has decided the bike is likes the most is a Yamaha FZ6.
Last sunday she was out shopping with our girls and called me from the road and asked if I wanted to meet her at the dealer cause she wanted to find a pair of riding pants for herself.
So, while she's checking out pants I decide to compare the R6 and the FZ6 just to see how many drivetrain components they have in common. When i notice the engines look the same from the outside, I decided to ask the salesman about the differences.
Now keep in mind I've gone through the trouble of explaining who this bike would be for, how long they have been riding, how many miles they have on a bike, the fact that I DO NOT want something that she can quickly get herself into trouble with and I'm expecting this guy to try and calm my fears by telling me how detuned it is and just how much calmer this engine is than a similar one in R6.
Instead, in tries to convince me that in buying the FZ6 I will be giving very little performance over the R6 and the only real difference is the chassis is just a little less nimble. (same power, less handleing, dosen't sound like a good combo) This goes on for like 10 minutes or so and is concluded with the declaration that he "is told" that the FZ6 is a good wheelie bike! Of course what goes through my mind is WTF!!!! Haven't you been listening to me!?!?
When we get home I relay the conversation to my wife and when I get to the part about the FZ6 being a good wheelie bike her eyes are as big as sausers! This guy, by pushing for performance over a bike that is actually something a particular rider can handle, probably talked him self right out of a sale. I not sure that I could now get my wife to even test ride an FZ6 for fear she would lift the front wheel.
Idiot!

 

Just a really bad salesman.... He forgot the rule about two ears and one mouth being for a reason. I don't think this is the dealers mindset though. I am a finance manager for a BMW dealership and when I was in sales the training we received was always about listening to your client and helping them find what they want. People don't want to be sold.... Its just a shame this type of thing happens all the time and it makes the whole industry look bad. I hope your wife gets a chance to ride an FZ though.... it would be a shame for her to miss out on a great bike for her because of a poorly trained or just ignorant salesperson.

 

He's on autopilot, that's exactly what the kid who can't afford the R6 or it's insurance wants to hear. Perhaps he did you a favor though, 500 miles on a vf500 hardly makes her ready to "upgrade". Why are beginners so quick to reach for more powerful bikes when they should be taking it easy for a couple years enjoying the ride itself?

 

I completely agree with you. I was really just talking to the dealer to humor my wife, and I don't really believe she is ready for a more powerfull bike, and i was in fact trying to make sure it wasn't overpowering. And in my wifes defense she also isn't interested in a more powerfull bike (you should have seen the look on her face when I mentioned the wheelies) she just wants something NEW. You know, a shopping kinda thing.
Just thought it was interesting that this guy was trying to sell on outright performance after I told that wasn't what I was interested in.

 

If she must, the SV650 or Kawi 650R would be much better choices - about the same power of what she has with modern styling, suspension and brakes. When my wife decided she wanted to learn to ride, I made a big mistake of buying her a new Vstar 650 - she dropped it twice in the driveway and once going about 5 miles per hour, all in the first year and 300 miles. Needless to say I sold the bike the next spring, she discovered she didnt enjoy being the driver anyway. Never again will I be part of buying a newbie an expensive bike, that vf500 couldnt be more perfect for at least the first 3,000 miles.

 

Damn, VF500 is one nicest bikes, depending on it's condition, there isn't anything that compares to it today, no not even the SV650. Yea I get the new thing, Women still work it in where she knows all the ins-outs of what she has, then take her to a track day.. woo hoo be careful she just might like it. and if thats no good, look for a NT650 hawk as another bike to look at.

 

Yep that's why she's riding one. It's a bike I've wanted since like '84! Her's at the moment is about a 30 foot bike though.

LOL, yea, that's a long way off. She would be a hazard to EVERYONE there at the speeds she rides.

 

I've owned an FZ1. A couple in fact. If she thinks she's ready for an upgrade I would not think another bike in the same block class would do.

But if she likes that size, then I would suggest you peruse the little looked at YZF600R. it's a comfy bike with FULLY adjustable front and rear suspensions (even the FZ1 and FZ6 do not have that.)! It's a great deal on a great bike. Best yet, you can probably get a fantastic deal on one since it is not in the 2008 lineup for Yamaha. I know a lot of women that love that bike. It's popular here in Florida. It's not fuel injected, but it's based on the old FZR600 motor. It's got a rock solid reputation and you're not going to be dealing with any fuel injection quirks. It has a cheap insurance rate and inexpensive maintenance. The fact that it has a fully adjustable front AND rear suspension (preload, compression, and rebound damping) is amazing at a MSRP of $7,099.00. The reviews of the bike actually say it has more midrange torque than the R6. The bike's a bit heavy for a 600c, but that adds to how solid it feels on the road. Confidence inspiring, and that's the name of the game.

The FZ6 sports the same seat as the older model FZ1. From experience I can tell you in a couple hours her ass will be on fire. The YZF600R offers a full fairing and great all weather protection. Just like the VFR, the YZF600 is a great all-round bike. Little talked about because it gets no press. And now it's off the lineup in 2008 altogether. A shame if you ask me. (Basically it's an FZR600 with a comfy seat and ergos.)

I have also owned a 2006 Ninja 650R... a great city commuter, but it fails miserably when it comes to suspension. The front forks have absolutely NO adjustment! They are factory springs and oil and that's about it. You quickly notice the downfall when you try to get a bit of spirit out of that bike. But in the city it is a very confident and flickable bike. The seat is ALL DAY, and I mean ALL DAY comfy.

Personally, I'd try to get her a YZF600R if I were you. Being as it is not in the 2008 lineup they are begging to be had at great prices. Loads of accessories for it too, unlike the newer Ninja 650R.

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products/modelspecs/25/0/specs.aspx

Check out the video on this bike under the 'gallery' tab.

Stan

 

These 'salesman' and i use that word with caution are driven purely by sales, he wants his comission and that's all he's interested in. He'll sell a bike to a baby if he can. The trick is to resist. In your case with your partner having only a few miles under her belt, i'd wait a bit. The only reason to get something different would be if her present bike was too heavy, or uncomfortable or similiar. When you reach the buying point, ALWAYS get a test ride, least that way you'll know if your partner likes the new bike and how it rides. Even then don't believe a word from the salesman lol

 

Ah yes known in the UK as the Thundercat. It was discontinued here a few years ago; I didn't know they were still available in the US.

Nice bike, if a bit heavy, but great as a comfortable tourer/commuter

 

Hey I am just curious if your wife likes the VF500, and what in particular prompted her to consider getting a more powerful bike. Some newbie riders who are not really into bikes that I have met think a bike makes them look cool or want a bike that looks fast (I know a very heavy lady who does not know how to ride a bicycle and never rode a motorcycle and wants to get a Busa - lol I am not kidding). I recently took a ride on a friends Ninja 250 and I like the little bike. It is a lot of fun and can move. Here in NYC you do find that some of the Jap bike dealers have salesjerks that try to sell new riders GSX-Rs and R1s which is crazy. A known culprit is the Crazy Freddie dealership in Long Island, NY - they are CRAZY along with being crooks. I have also met some newbies who go to an event like Americaide where all the major manfacturers are doing test rides so they can checkout different bikes. I have met quite a few trackday junkies who have told me that even though they can ride like hell it takes quite a bit of riding and time before you reach a 600cc limits. As far as BMW goes I have never owned one, but I have a lot of respect for their bikes and have had good experiences at their dealerships.

 

Personally, when I go shopping for a new ride I always tell the approaching salesman I am just looking. I ask if it's ok to sit on a few bikes and then go about my business. I know most of the salesmen in my area at the various shops, having owned various brands in the past decade. They know me as well. They know I like to sit on a few, chat about them, come back a few times and do the same. When I am ready to buy a bike I go in and tell the salesperson when they have time they need to get with me. That lets them know it's the day I am buying.

As a reply to a post above about the YZF600R not being sold in the UK... I did mention that it's not on the 2008 roster for Yamaha in the USA. In my opinion it's a good deal. Yeah, heavy for it's size, but so's a VFR800. The VFR weighs the same as a ST3 which is almost 200 cc larger. But I think the weight of the VFR makes it handle as well as it does, same for the Yamaha 600. The Ninja 650 is a great bike, very narrow, light, inexpensive, and low in the saddle, but the hands down most popular in the 650 class is of course the SV650.

Stan

 

It was never about a more powerfull bike, she just wanted a newer bike and she liked the looks of the FZ. Her interest in the bike went down after I relayed the dealers comments to her. You're not going to find a bike that is not more powerfull the the VF500 with out going to a much smaller displacement bike, but since my wife is 5'9", I figured she would be cramped on a smaller bike. (although I'll admit we didn't try it.)
As far as how she likes the VF500, well, this is only the second motorcycle she's ever ridden and the first was 125 enduro I tried to teach her how to ride in Pasadena High School parking lot almost 30 years ago, so she doesn't have a lot to compare it to. She says she'd like the brakes to work a little better though. She had also in the later parts of the summer taken off for rides on several ocasions with out me, I would have to assume she's enjoying it. She wants both of us to take the ARC next spring, and if she's still riding at the end of next summer, maybe we'll talk about a newer bike. The VF500 can then go to my 13yo daughter.

 

dskelton...

Power is a relative thing. As one person mentioned in here he loved riding a Ninja 250. Well, even the Ninja 250 is capable of 120mph. And believe me, with a 6-speed you can get that little bike there FAST! All bikes are 'wheelie mosters', if that's what you intend to do with it. Smaller, lighter bikes can ALWAYS blow doors on the heavier, larger displacement bikes from a stand-still, but displacement will always win with smoothness and torque in the midrange and upper end of the rev range. Reminds me of my youth and when I had my Yamaha RD400. I'll blow the doors of anything alive up to 110mph, and wheelie in every gear doing it, but after that, I'm topped out.

If she likes the 500 then leave well enough alone. I would imagine that she would only really get tired of it on frequent and extensive hiway cruises of more than a tankful at a time. Multiple tank rides will give her an idea how her smaller displacement bike really is not the best choice in that situation. They tend to be light, and bobble more at hiway speeds. They tend to get annoyingly buzzy and loud after a few long road trips. The wrists and hands tend to ache. More displacement gives more relaxed riding at higher sustained speeds.

If she were to get an FZ6, it's not really upgrading much. If she were to get an FZ1, now that I would call an upgrade. Teach her to use her power wisely. Always respect what the bike can do, even if you are not one to push it to the limits. Most riders don't. I found my FZ1 to be super quiet on the hiway, but come time to pass someone while doing 80mph is very different between a 500cc and 1000c bike. The 500cc bike is basically in 6th gear screaming at about 7-7.5krpm, so no need to downshift, but does it have any umph left to pass? My FZ1 I had to downshift two gears to get good passing torque.

It's all in how you use what you got.

Why'd I get a VFR800 after I had been happy with a few 1000cc bikes? Because you don't really need that 1000cc. The VFR I bought came with the bags and liners, and the gearing is such that it's pretty relaxed at hiway speeds. 5krpm at 70mph. I probably plan to change the rear sprocket and chain and drop it down to where my Ducati ST3 was - 4krpm at 70mph. The Honda is WAY more quiet on the road than my previous Ducati. I don't miss her at all.

Stan

 

Forgot about the YZF600.. Had a good friend that owned one and loved it.. Sold it for a 350Z, Whimp..

 

My first bike was an '88 FZ 600. Old and beat up, but otherwise perfect. It did what I asked it to and was calm enough for a starter. The only reason I got rid of it so soon was the smokin deal on my VFR.

 

had this happen to me, dealer thought the black bird would make a great first bike.

Good thing i liked the ergo's on the vfr just slightly more. And even still thats a big bike to start with.

 

Drewl...

I had a 1986 FZ600. At the time the best 600cc on the street. I liked the old red, white, and blue paint scheme that they used on it that year. Kinda like the 2007 VFR. I'm 46, and I've had a number of different bikes for different reasons. I even had a 1987 Yamaha SRX250 for a couple years. That was a fun bike actually. I was pretty much into Yamaha most of my life. This is my first Honda, and I have to say it's a keeper. Bulletproof pretty much describes it. I have no real issues with my bike and enjoy just getting on it and going to the store for milk.

Stan

 

Funny you should write about this I was just thinking of a story I heard of not so long ago bout a father who wanted to sue the dealer who sold his son a new sport bike and he coulnt handle the bike and got killed on it. I think all of them failed in their responsibilities to properly introduce the sport of motorcycling. I started riding a Honda CMT200 on the street and gradually worked my way up. I beleive that one has to be confident in their abilities to handle the bike one wants to ride, of course their are times that testing those abilities comes with the territory. however I dont beleive that even modern 600s are really a "good choice" for a relatively new/ inexperienced rider.

 

Dskelton...
_____________________________________
My first bike was an '86 VF500F as well, which I bought as a 1 yr. old bike in 1987. I thought it was a great starter bike at the time, but I remember telling an AFM racer what I was learning on it as my first bike, and he said something that mystified me at the time, that a 500 Interceptor was a bit tall and top-heavy for a first bike for a novice rider. I didn't understand what he meant at the time because I had no basis for comparison. I rode my VF500F for two years, and put 16,000 miles on it over that time. I then went in on a stock 250 Ninja with a good buddy as a track day bike. Right after we bought the 250 Ninja, I crashed my 500 Interceptor riding through power steering fluid through a corner, and bent the frame. While the bike was at the Frame Man getting the frame straightened (which took about two months due to the backup of jobs he had at the time), I rode our 250 Ninja for two months. I have to say that I learned things riding the 250 Ninja for two months that I never learned riding my 500 Interceptor for the two years prior, including understanding what that AFM racer meant about 500 Interceptors being kind of tall and top heavy as a beginner's bike. He was right, they are. I also really started to learn about keeping corner speed up and being really, really smooth in the upper rev range, 'cause you had to, to get and keep a 250 Ninja moving.

I then started racing with my buddy a few months later on the 250 Ninja, and REALLY started to learn what riding was all about. I raced the 250 for a year, then moved to a 400 cc CB-1 as a race bike. My entire AFM career was spent racing bikes no larger than 400 cc, finally ending with racing an FZR400 for two years. The FZR really taught be a lot about being extremely smooth, because it was such a high-strung thoroughbred that it was very easy to over-ride the bike, and you would go slower rather than faster. Every time I told myself to slow down and ride smoother when racing the FZR, I ended up going faster with less effort. As the FZR had such a narrow power band in racing, I really learned about how to ride very, very smoothly, because you had to keep the revs between 12,000 and 14,000 rpm AT ALL TIMES, or you would just get flat dropped in a heartbeat exiting a corner.

Developing those skills on small, underpowered bikes all those years I think really provided me with a technical foundation that has served me well to this day. In fact, until I bought my VFR mid-November, I've never owned anything but or larger than CBR600s. Certainly those CBRs have gotten faster since my first one in 1989, but that technical foundation based on riding and racing little bikes has served me in good stead.

My recommendation would be to keep your wife on her 500 for quite a bit longer, or if she wants something newer (and less top-heavy :wink, I would also say that an SV650 is an ideal choice, or even one of the new 250 NInjas!