Leaning into turns.....

Discussion in 'Racing & Track Days' started by sullyvfr, Jun 22, 2009.

  1. sullyvfr

    sullyvfr New Member

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    I had my 04' on the track for the first time at Road Atlanta this weekend. I did really well for my first time, but I struggle with bringing my knee out and leaning into the turns.

    Does anyone have any suggestions? I know the VFR isnt a track bike and I am thinking since the tank is so much bigger, it is hard to get from side to side.
     
  2. Bubba Zanetti

    Bubba Zanetti Member

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    Sully:

    The VFR is a fine track bike. I'll help you with this but heading to bed, will post tomorrow.

    BZ
     
  3. Cundalini

    Cundalini New Member

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    I think the VFR was made for track racing? Fast Freddie Spencer and all.
    I am too knew to give advice on cornering, but I have seen lots of vfr track pictures on this site, as well as watched lots of cool VFR race videos on youtube :wink:
     
  4. soundmaster31

    soundmaster31 New Member

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    First of all...was it just an open track or did you have schooling/coaches about proper technique?

    Second, When you're cornering, are you riding on the balls of your feet or on the arches?


    If you take the corner on the balls of your feet(better toe clearance) and get your butt halfway off the seat in the direction of the turn, then popping the knee out is a little more natural feeling. Using the ball of your foot allows that angle to feel more relaxed as your leg pivots outward. Kind of like how in basketball if you pick up you're dribble you can pivot on one foot...using the ball allows you to change direction easily.


    The tank really shouldn't feel like it's in your way. It's kind of the fulcrum point as you slide left or right off the seat. Are your leathers creating a lot of friction on the seat making it difficult to transition from left to right and so on? I know my leathers stick pretty good when it's warm out...but my textile pants are like sliding on ice almost.

    I've seen some different instruction on head position but the one that I like and seems comfortable to me is where your chin is moved down in the direction of your inside knee and it's as if you were leaning out and forward into the turn trying to kiss where your mirror would be(track ready bikes). But keep your head looking up and ahead into the turn of course...


    BTW, How tall are you? I'm 6'4 so being able to position my knee is fairly easy. I'm not a professional in any way and there are some books you can read about riding position that I'm sure others will chime in with. Just make sure to learn the right way first and start slowly. With good form and practice, speed and grace will follow.
     
  5. cebuVFR

    cebuVFR Member

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  6. willy

    willy New Member

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    Hey there. I've done two track days this month on my VRF(a salvage titles bike sans body work which I bought cheap just to do track days with) and will do another on thursday. Being that i'm a dirtbiker/supermoto racer/ and most of all a ice racer at heart; Ive found myself struggling a little bit with getting off the bike to the inside. the funny thing is I had a bit of sucess road racing in the late 90's /early 2000s, but on review even pics taken back then show me riding my sv650 in a pretty retarded fashion.

    Last year I took my v strom-pretty much a giant supermoto as far as seating position-for my 1st track day in years and this was the result: Photo Viewer
    by no means am I going slowly, but I was dragging hard parts enough to push me off the good lines. you can actually see me trying to figure out how to hang off, but without much success. it is true that my form at times resembles kevin schwants/eddie lawson on a wobbly superbike circa 1982, but thats not what we want now, is it?

    Here's what a NESBA control rider told me that seems to be helping: "turning left? right titty touches left tank". Get your body down on the tank beyond it's midline and also, if possible watch video of some pros riding a rain race like koznski at phillips island on his RC45 in (i think 1997-here:YouTube - 1997 World Superbike Phillip Island Race 1 Recap). the reason this is illustrative is you can see how he's using hanging off to keep the bike as straight up and down as possible, which is one reason you want to hang off a VFR, since it will scrape stuff on the ground pretty easy. In my case I removed center stand, and kick stand but still scraped the pipe and peg on the right ( 04' VFR). In this film, he's (kocweirdsky) looking very smooth compared to foggy and all the others who can't seem to stay on thier bikes.

    The other thing i'm finding is, the VFR (i'm running michelan pilot powers which is a huge improvemnt over the shinkos that came on the bike) likes to stand up a little if you trail brake and doesn't have that good "on the front wheel" feel thats condusive to confidence in the corners while trail braking, though I believe hanging off more effectivley will help some in muscling the thing to my will. I also raised the fork in the triple clamps 5mm yesterday and my short street rides thus far make me think 10mm would have been better.

    last but not least, I'm really looking forward to the next track day in hopes that it wont rain as it did during parts of my last two track days. the VFR was not too bad in the wet but I did high side it once...which was a thrill. what I learned in the wet was something I already knew, which is *don't have your body weight on your hands, especially while on the brakes, but also when hanging off. Carry it in your feet and legs and core instead. this is hard work but on a slippery track anything else causes the bike to move around in a pretty unsettling manner, as does ham handed throttle application. I learned alot pounding out laps in the rain even if it resulted in bent handlbar, smushed frame slider and snapped off shift lever. Thursday should be golden...

    good luck...and keep watching video of racers racing, as well as doing track days with control riders like NESBA, because they really can help you improve.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2009
  7. willy

    willy New Member

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    also, here's some random dude showing you how not to do it if you plan on adding a bunch of lean angle:GRON4 Photo Viewer
     
  8. sullyvfr

    sullyvfr New Member

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    Thanks Guys

    Wow! I really appreciate your time guys. There was an instructor and I understand why you should be on the balls of your feet. I was wearing my suit and boots for the first time. Since I have always ridin on the street, my foot placement was always off the balls of my feet.

    I need to get used to the feel of the boots. It seems that when I am on the balls of my feet, it is an unusual feeling and a far reach for the clutch. I will watch the videos and keep practicing as well as condition my legs (quads) to make the body shift smoother.

    Thanks again guys and keep the tips coming if you think of any more!



    Sully
     
  9. Bubba Zanetti

    Bubba Zanetti Member

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    Well a lot of good responses already LOL!

    OK, first thing, and some others have already pointed this out. If your VFR is mechanically sound and your suspension is set up the best it can be for your weight (sag is set) then the VFR is more than capable as a track bike. Is it the best track bike? No! But you can still learn on it.

    Here’s a list of VFRW members who use their VFR’s on the track:

    Me (4th gen)
    Betarace (3rd gen)
    Reg71 (5th gen)
    Slovfr(4th gen)
    Tori (6th gen)
    Two4One (6th gen)
    PARedVFRRider(6th gen)

    I am sure there are others, but they are escaping my mind at the moment. And some members do enough track days they have bought dedicated track bikes, so their VFR’s are retired from track use. But they can comment that they worked well. Two4One is a fellow NESBA rider too and rode his 6th gen in A-group for a time. For those of you familiar with NESBA’s A-group that speaks volumes. I just want to drive the point home that ‘rider skill’ is what makes someone fast, not necessarily the bike they ride.

    So your question was about “leaning into curves”. For me, I was taught/ trained to get off the bike and into position way BEFORE the turn. So coming into a turn I’m actually pressing on the opposite grip so the bike isn’t trying to fall into the turn (i.e. approaching a left hand turn I’m off the bike to the left, pressing on the right hand grip to keep the straight bike up and using the brake, this is where the legs and core body strength come in so you aren’t tightening up your arms on the hand grips, then at my turn in point I press on the left grip and the bike snaps into the turn and you go left. My right arm is nice and relaxed on the tank and I’m only using it to roll on the throttle). This process is best described in Lee Parks’ Total Control book. He calls it the 10 steps, which seems like a lot, but once you practice it, it blends together well. It feels very foreign when you first are learning to hang off. But now, I hate cornering without hanging off! It felt odd to get off and low on a bike. Now it feels odd to be on top of the bike when cornering.

    The biggest thing to stress when cornering is you must be relaxed! Trust me, I fight this more than anything. When I am relaxed it just flows and feels right. The bike turns so easily, the knee touches down with ease, I carry more corner speed. If the bike feels like it won’t steer, it doesn’t snap over quickly, handling feels “off” when leaned over, your arms feel tired when returning to the pits…guess what? You have the death grip on your handles. Keith Code describes this problem very well in his book Twist of the Wrist II. I can vouch he’s telling the truth too!

    So I recommend, to help solve your problem, is buy Keith Code’s and Lee Park’s books mentioned above, read them, and then consider which training class best fits your personality. I went with Lee Park’s class first because it was low threat. Meaning I was more comfortable learning how to hang off at 35 mph then 60 to 80 mph. Glad I did. Made my NESBA track days go easier. In addition, I taught my buddy Jeff what I learned, in a parking lot, and his butt is way faster than me LOL! He can vouch the Lee Parks exercises work. And we still practice in the DMV parking lot to this date. As stated, the NESBA Control Riders are very helpful, but it is really good to have a foundation BEFORE you go to the track. And if ‘speed’ doesn’t bother you for learning in, by all means start with Keith Code’s school. God willing, I’ll be attending level 1 spring 2010!

    Hope this helps.

    BZ
     
  10. betarace

    betarace New Member

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  11. Sebspeed

    Sebspeed New Member

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    Who needs a track? (just kidding, of course!)

    [​IMG]
     
  12. betarace

    betarace New Member

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    awesome! love that pic
     
  13. douglasthecook

    douglasthecook New Member

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    I also do track days on my VFR, and have found some useful tips that might assist you as well. Try to get your elbow below your wrist, as this will help pull you down. Also I try to lean off the bike in a manner that is described above, (right titty on left of tank), or try to put your head where your mirror was if you took it off for the track day. Another thing you can do is practice your body position between sessions. I will put my bike on the stand and practice my side-to-side transitions. This was very helpful this year at Valencia, as there are a few corners that definitely have you going back and forth across the bike. Also move your feet to the outside of the pegs, ball of foot on tip of peg, as this gives you more leverage on the pegs. Get pics from the track day and compare them to professional riders, as this will help you see what you're doing correctly and incorrectly. I think that's all I have for now, but hopefully this helps a little!!!
     
  14. soundmaster31

    soundmaster31 New Member

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    Yeah, once you get on the ball of your foot and can rotate your foot position so bending your knee outward actually feels natural then it's gravy from there.

    Take your boots and leathers out on the street. Get them broken in and get used to them. If the leather is sticking maybe try some conditioning ream or mink oil or something



    EXACTLY. Me too. Like anything in life, planing and well thought out setup are what allows anything to go smoothly...including taking a curve on a motorcycle.



    I am the same way!!!!


    Very good advice about everything Bubba Zanetti!!!
     
  15. willy

    willy New Member

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    more leaning into turns and groundhogs

    Thats a great picture of the VFR leaned waaay over....if he's not crashing, he would be if he were turning right...

    I had a pretty good track ride today and managed to avoid crashing. kind of getting the hanging off thing and had my knee on the deck consistently in my better corners. During my best session I was going incredibly well and was...in the zone...that is; until I entered the front straight and rolled on...and at 100-110 mph a freakin' very rotund groundhog suddenly ran in front of me and I killed him with a center mass hit...I really expected something bad to happen but the VFR rolled over him like buttah. probably helpful I really didnt have time to get on the brakes so the bike was pretty nuetral. Needless to say, that kind of broke my concentration for the session and after that the 90 degree temps started to take their toll on my brain pan. I'll post pics of my new and improved leanings as they become available.

    I'm sort of toying with the idea of racing the VFR once or twice just because I know I wouldnt be last...pretty sure turkey baster pan is all the belly pan ui'd need
     
  16. 02 VFR Rider

    02 VFR Rider New Member

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    do not worry about hanging off and dragging your knee, work on picking good lines, corner entry and exit.
    as you improve in this area the next thing you know you will be dragging your knee on the ground.
    If you focus only on dragging your knee you will just hold your progress up.
    relax have fun and enjoy.
     
  17. klee27x

    klee27x New Member

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    I'm not particularly fast, but here's my 2 cents:

    Head position is a big thing for me. If I'm trying to peer around the corner, I naturally want to keep my head up and out to get the best angle. Bringing it down and in feels dangerous, unless I'm familiar with the corner. Dunno if that's a truism, or it's just me.

    To me, it looks like your head is way up and out. When you get your head down and in, you can get the outside elbow snugged against the tank. This is the single most important thing for me. Because once that happens, it frees up my hands and wrists for steering, rather than holding my upper body position. In this position, I feel like I have the most pure steering feel/control over any other time on a bike. (Any other time, a change in steering moves your body, which moves the bars, etc etc. They're inseparable events, which results in some degree of tension.) I supposed you might also get this feeling if your chest were glued to the tank. This is a good tradeoff for the very slightly narrower angle of vision.

    Also, on bikes like the VFR, the pegs are way farther back then some of the modern racy bikes. So depending on your height, if you want to get the proper leg angle for knee-down, you might have to move your weight back a little to get your haunches over the peg. I'm 5'11", and I feel like I'm too short to get a really aggressive knee-down position on the VFR while keeping my weight where I like it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2009
  18. jay956

    jay956 New Member

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    you have a foot activated clutch?
     
  19. GreyVF750F

    GreyVF750F Member

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    When your on the balls of your feet. You then support your body with your legs. NOT your ass on the seat. Puts all your weight way down low on the pegs where it belongs. Now you can booble the bike back and forth underneath you any time you want with little effort.

    You can practice this way to get the feel. It works.:biggrin:
     

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  20. Bubba Zanetti

    Bubba Zanetti Member

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    I only know the above because it's what I have problems with LOL!
     
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