Forks or shocks - Which one first?

Alright people. I know that the three big performance upgrades left to do on my 5th gen. are forks, shock and the RapidBike ECU. I can't do all three things at once ($$$$), but I can do them in stages.

The ECU is about improving midrange torque and low speed drivability. I will do that one last.

I would appreciate some feedback about which of the other two is best to do first.

Keeping in mind that I weigh 260 lbs., my thought is that forks would make the most sense to do first. I believe the improvement in front wheel tracking and dive control would significantly help the stock rear shock. I bumped the rear shock to maximum preload and I don't seem to bottom it out regularly even with my version of "aggressive" riding. I don't think improving the rear shock would help the woefully undersprung and underdamped stock forks as much as forks would help the rear shock.

So if you could only do one, would you upgrade the forks or the shock first? The cost is the same for either. The shock is a bolt-in. Jamie D now makes a drop-in fork upgrade kit that give your stock tubes adjustable compression and damping along with the stock preload adjustment.

Jose

 

I say the shock first, the rear suspension is terrible stock.

 

I installed one of Jamie's CBR929 upgrades on my bike and was absolutely amazed at the difference. I have thought about doing the drop in front fork upgrade as well at some point but I very happy with the results achieved with just replacing the rear shock.

 

I'd go with rear shock first as its easier to make minor mods to the forks until you can do the JD kit. BTW, it's rebound adjustment that you get, not compression, that would require different fork sliders.

 

Very interesting and great feedback. Rear shock it is.

Jose

 

When I first got my 5th gen, I thought all was good.
After riding it for a few months, I relised things where not that great.
The front end was too soft in spring rate (I'm only 74kilos) too hard on slow speed damping, and too hard on high speed, and used to dive too much under braking.
The rear was not too bad on spring rate for my weight, but again too hard on slow speed, but way too soft on high speed.
The end result was that the rear bottomed out too easy and offered a too harsh ride, making the bike wallow and buck on rough roads. And the front was too soft and skipped over any ripples or bumps mid corner.
It didn't offer a very stable ride and you were always worried about the bike running wide or bucking you off the road.
I found my self stiffening up mid corner as I had no confidence on the ability of the bike to hold a line.
First thing I did was replace the front springs to a single rate that was to my weight + pillion.
This improved things a lot, but it was still very nervous on ripples and showed excessive dive under brakes.
Then I replaced the rear shock with a JD 929 rear again to suit me and a pillion.
This took a bit of time to dial in, as when I installed it as I got it, I found it way too harsh and unenjoyable to ride.
At first I thought I wasted my money, now I know it was the best investment I made, would a Wilbers or Ohlins be better? Shit yes, but not for the money.
After this set up, I was still not happy with bumpy corners, as it would unsettle the front of the bike and not give you any confidence to go hard.
I took the damping cartdridges to a local suspension tuner and told him the springs rates I had, and that I wanted a softer slow speed damping, but a harder high speed and I wanted to use 5 weight oil.
I know that spending the money on after market valving would be much better, but I just could not afford it at the time.
The new valves are on my wish list for now, but I can't stress enough on what a difference this has made.
While I was there I replaced the sliders and seals, as they had way too much play and were making the front end wander all over the place. (this made a huge difference to front end stability)
I can now ride to my abilities, without havin to worry about the road surface, It took a while to stop looking at the road surface with so much concentration, and just ride and only look at cornering lines.
Seriously, I now just ride the corner, not the surface.
The bike stills moves around every now and then, and might buck here and then when pushed hard on a rough surface, but you just ignore it and keep the line.
I cannot stress enough on what a difference this had made, the standard 5th gen suspension is crap for anyone but an old fart, full stop.
This is even more relevant if you weigh what you say, (I'm only 160 pounds)
I had the whole thing set up for riding two up, as my wife and I do a lot of touring (we can go pretty hard even with a fully loaded up bike), so the set up is stiff on my own, but still a million times more compliant and stable then standard.
Forget trying to get more horse power from electronic gizmos, the increase will be minimal if any, nothing gets you faster around the corner then a faster entry/exit speed, full stop.
I recently did a track day at Eastern Creek which was superb, but nothing is more humbling then blowing a bloke on a Aprillia 250 2/stroke down the straight, only to be humiliated when he takes you 5 turns later because he is keeping up a cornering speed twice of yours.
I'll add that I raised the rear 15mm and dropped the front 8mm, plus installed new tappered bearings. All these parts are dirt cheap from Fleabay if you do it yourself. All up it has cost me under $800.
There is no way the VFR needs a steering damper as it is still super stable, and nothing upsets it, even two up.
It amazes me how many people spend $400 plus on a Scotts steering damper without spending anything on their suspension.
A well set up bike is better then more horse power any time.

The front end points you in the right direction, the rear just goes along for the ride!! (they are both shit as standard)

 

Shock, and as Zoom Zoom mentioned: go with Jamie Daugherty's CBR929 shock. I got mine & will do the install over the winter (that is if I don't put that off for too long)

 

One of your comments really resonates with me OZ. I have that same feeling mid-corner, where I just don't trust the bike to hold the line and I keep wanting to do mid-turn corrections.

The RapidBike ECU is not about getting more power. It's about addressing a short coming of the factory ECU where it just sort of runs rich everywhere and bucks around at lower, city speeds. That's why it's third on the wish list. It's more of a "it will be nice to have" type of thing. Kind of like Carrozeria wheels. They are REALLY nice, but $2800 is A LOT of money to spend on just getting something purrty.

What surprises me is to hear that a shock upgrade has so much more impact compared to the forks. Not questioning the common experience of the group, just thinking that it goes counter to "common sense". You would think bad springy bits that hold up and point the bike would have a greater affect on performance than bad springy bits that just hold up the bike.

I plan to install over the winter as well, nookiaz.

Jose

 

Before you go spend hundreds of dollars on stuff that may or may not work go buy this book and read it until you really understand it. Racetech's Motorcycle Suspension Bible. It is technical but with that said taking the time and understanding what it is stating is worth the time, money and effort. It is worth the $35.

 

I too have that book and its very informative and useful, especially for the DIY'er, but regardless of the info in the book, the VFR suspension is under sprung and under damped, most particularly for sport riding and for someone of Jose size. Plus there is no adjustability with the stock rear shock except preload and rebound damping, so there's only so much you can do with it unless you swap out the shock or change the OEM internals to suit your weight and riding type.

As an example, I'm 5'8" and weigh 175 lbs w/gear and until I had my suspension modified it just wasn't cutting it for anything other than commuting and even then, pot holes and square edge bumps were very jarring at the handle bars.

 

RaceTech's book is actually $12.99 on Kindle. :smug:

While I do see value in your advice (Grabcon), I agree with OOTV that you don't have to understand everything about how a suspension works to get real value from the hundreds spent on replacing the OEM shock. JamieD has built quite a few shocks for members of this forum and has the experience to help out even a very uninformed rider get a shock built to the correct specifications for how he rides.

I come from the auto mechanic end of the spectrum and an axiom that gets thrown around is that typical OEM suspensions are barely adequate for intended use. The VFR was designed for someone who likes to long distance tour, do "some" mountain road touring on high mileage tires and weighs 165 lbs. I am 6' tall, weigh 260 lbs., run Dunlop Q2/3 tires and really like spirited rides on winding mountain roads. The OEM suspension will absolutely not work for me and there are suspension tuners/suppliers who can readily supply the right components knowing nothing other than my weight and intended usage.

Since we are on the topic, I have an old bookmark with a Motorcyclist article I like to refer to and share.

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/suspension-setup-101-part-ii-all-about-damping/?image=1

Jose

 

Some ride the front, some ride the rear. Suspension feel is subjective. If you are riding around on 15 year old suspension components and they have never been serviced, might be cause for some contemplation on that merit alone. Doesn't matter which end you start with, but both are way past their service intervals and life expectancy for stock components. You won't get the full benefits of one without the other, so just pick an end and go after it.

You could also take a look at the last time you greased the swingarm pivot, linkage bearings, headstock bearings. If that hasn't ever been done then you might be looking at using a BFH and a metric fuckton of cursing just to get the bolts out....stiction is one of the biggest reasons folks think they have suspension issues....Ya gotta start somewhere and that is the best return on investment if funds are short.

The ability to adjust the fueling is mandatory. When tuned by a competent dyno technician, the results can be quite substantial for the investment.

 

^^^This^^^
I totally agree.

 

Hi I fitted a nitron sport rear shock to my VFR and love it absolutely beautiful rear shock and it's a different bike in all the right ways do it you won't regret it

 

I found a Penske shock (don't know model) that looks like it could fit my bike, but it only has a 50.5mm stroke length. My understanding is that our bikes have a stock stroke length of 58mm. Is losing the 7.5mm of stroke is a huge issue, or does the much higher performance of the shock negate a loss in stroke? In a car, I would not worry about such a small difference. On a bike with progressive linkage, I am not sure.

Jose

 

Check with Jamie D. I found a Penske and sent that to him to redo the internals and change the spring on and I'm more than satisfied with the outcome. The shock was off of a GSXR, but turned out it wasn't meant for a GSXR nor any sportbike for that matter. JD did his work on it and I have no issues or complaints.

 

7.5mm stroke difference is huge when put through the progressive suspension.
It will be like cutting your wheel travel from 120mm to 100 or there abouts.
I think you're better off finding a correct size shock.