DUMB Question(s)

Hello Guys,

I started looking into my non-starting issue last night and found this morning that I may have a bad fuel cut relay connector. However, after doing the test on the fuel cut relay, I began to wonder if I read the manual right or if I was just assuming. Here's wht it says:



I'm wondering...it says "There should be no continuity only whene the 12v battery is connected. Then the next line throws me off. " If the continuity is exist when 12v battery is connected, replace the fuel cut relay."

Does this mean that there shouldn't be continuity UNTIL 12v is connected? Or vice-versa?

Oh my! If only I understood simple English well enough.


Also, how can one tell if the VFR 5th gen came with HISS? As you all know, I got a basket-case to use as a project bike.

All positive input welcome.

Thank you.

 

That is confusing!! Looking at the diagram and thinking about how it should work then there should be continuity when the battery is connected and no continuity when there is no power. At least that's what I think, I don't know that for sure.

As for the HISS, I think if you have it it should read H I S S right above the ignition key switch. Again, I'm not positive on that but have just seen it before.

 

Look closely at the diagram!!!!

The text is right but not brilliant!


(Note this diagram shows how to test the relay is working - not how its wired into the bike.)

Inherently you are looking at a relay controlled circuit - when the power is ON on the trigger circuit (thats the one shown with a battery attached) - the secondary circuit should be disconnected.

When you cut the voltage to the trigger circuit terminals it should COMPLETE the secondary circuit.



Basically if the secondary circuit remains complete when power is applied to the trigger circuit then you need a replacement relay!


As for HISS if your bike has it then the word HISS will be written on the ignition switch like this -




Hope that helps




Skimad

 

I may be completely wrong on this account but I'm not sure the 5th gen bikes in Canada and the US ever came with the HISS option. I was under the impression it was only available in Europe and other countries. I have seen it available on the 6th gen bikes here in Canada but never on a 5th gen machine.

 

I think you are right. I read that somewhere a couple of days ago.

 

Now that is definitely clearer than the manual. Thanks.

 

Would an out of line valve clearance cause a bike to turn over but not start?

I do not think so but I am asking just incase there is something else I do not know.

Thanks

 

If the valves are being held open then you wouldn't have the compression for the bike to start. It's unlikely for this to happen on its own where you have enough valves in enough cylinders to all go off at the same time to not start. You should of noticed something wrong the last time you rode it. Down on power. Unless you just did a valve adjustment and now it won't start. Maybe you should give us some history on what led upto your bike not starting.

 

Mr Sleep,

I do not have a lot of history on the bike apart from the previous owner trying to work on it and didn't seem to know much of what he was doing then he gave up and sold it.

So far, I have swapped the ignition and cam pulse generators and they past the tests.

The wire harness has been swapped along with the neutral switch. Now my Neutral light comes on when gear is in neutral. I have swapped the ECU also just in case the previous one was bad.

I am not getting spark to the plugs and that's my REAL problem it seems. I had thought it was my previous ignition pulse gen but I don't think the pulse generator is the problem now.

Right now, my ignition switch is not in good shape. The tumbler is messed up, so I removed the tumbler and use a screwdriver to turn the switch ON and OFF, and it works, except I do not know if there is anything else on the switch that triggers the engine to start. I do not have HISS.

I have also cleaned the fuel injectors. they do not spit fuel and I think because I the ECU isnt telling it to. The fuel relay also doesn't work right even after swapping a few relays. The fuel pump does work because when I jump it, it purrs.

I would SERIOUSLY appreciate any kind of positive ideas. I'm stumped. I appreciate you guys.

Thanks

 

Also have a new MOSFET R/R installed.

 

Wow it sounds like you are on a mission here.

Ok you are confident(ish) of the fuel supply and are basically dealing with "why no sparks?"

When a bike has a problem you normally start from the premise that it was working OK previously, and now it is not working, you are basically trying to identify what has changed. In this case you are making an assumption, that the previous owner went about methodically fault finding, removing components and properly reinstating them after they test out OK. As that assumption may not be valid you may be better off trying to blueprint the system so its back to what it was out of the factory.

As you will see it will be a real chore to locate test and reinstate each bit in turn and then continuity test the loom, but it should ensure you have a system delivering sparks and fuel when required.

The other unknown is the state of the heads/valves, but faults there should not cause a lack of spark - just a lack of ... :kaboom:

If it helps, a while back I came across and filed away this exploded diagram of the VFR PGM-FI layout, which should allow you to identify the substantive parts of the system and their location on the bike. Note the diagram is of a HISS equipped vtec, and as it is pretty cluttered and best to save locally and review using Adobe reader - as you can then zoom in to see things a lot more clearly. (DRAT - I can't figure out how to paste a pdf file here, so switching to plan #2 - I have temporarily uploaded a copy of the pdf file onto one of my websites here.)



www.lifford-cooke.com/motorbiking/documents/VFR VTEC PGM-FI Diagram 2002.pdf


As for the keys/lock issue - IF the bike had HISS then there would be a very fancy digital electronic cross check between the feed from the ignition key to the ECU - which were matched ex factory. This would immobilise the bike if the wrong key or some sort of hot wiring was attempted. I am sorry I can't advise on what if any protection was fitted to the non-HISS bikes sold in the USA, but obviously if it incorporated some sort of rudimentary immobilisation feature it too could be the cause of the lack of sparks. You really need input from someone your side of the pond on that.

Anyway good luck with the mission. Let us know how you get on.





SkiMad

 

Thanks Skimad, I have saved the document. My bike is a 5th generation but the diagram is and will be useful.

As with any project with which one doesn't start from scratch, it gets frustrating after a while. Although I have been working on my car for the past 5 years - no mechanic has fixed anything. I have only had them help diagnose difficult occurences, this bike thing is new to me and I have learned a lot already.

I'll wait for someone to help chime in on the ignition thingy before I proceed. If there is some kind of security feature built in to the key then, I can crank to eternity and it wouldn't start.

I need all the help I can get.

Thanks a bunch.

 

Suggestions

It may be a good idea to edit your forum profile to add in your VFR model/year and some sort of State/city location. That way if you are just up the road from one of the folks your side of the pond, they may be willing to swing by and advise for a few beer tokens!

For guidance on the 5th gen ignition - it might be worth a PM to Tink or Toe (although perhaps not in the immediate post R3 recovery period otstir.

I am pretty sure that most bikes made since the 70's incorporated some version of nested start inhibitor system - to prevent the bike being fired up in gear and tip over sensors to stop the engine if the bike is dropped.

I assume you have already downloaded the manual (should be in the specifications forum). As you can get the engine to crank over it sounds like you are pretty close to getting the beast running. So it may be worth reviewing the starting circuit diagram and testing the output of each of the critical switches and sensors which together need to feed correct input to the ECU in order to fire up the engine.

I would look closely at the ignition switch diagram to see whether it is more than a simple on/off connection. You say you can by-pass the switch and the strater motor will crank, but I suspect that in addition to feeding power to the starter, that switch also energises other circuits - which your simple by-pass solution is not activating.

Sorry to sound like a cracked record, but you need to look closely at the diagrams in the manual and then work methodically testing each component - as it seems at least one item is not happy. From memory there will probably be sensors/circuitry on the sidestand, clutch, kill switch, neutral/gear position, RPM and tip over sensors which all interlink with the starter circuit and ECU - basically to stop you doing something daft.

As the issue is mostly about no sparks I would then work backwards on the circuit diagram to check all the wiring starting from the spark plugs, just in case something got disconnected. If all seems good - follow a normal start procedure. Kill Switch to on, Neutral, Clutch, ignition to on, press starter..

Keep at it - it sounds like you are nearly there...




SkiMad

 

Thanks for the clear post and reasonable suggestions. I will try them next weekend as I am away from home for about a week.

I will play with the wiring diagram and brush up on some simple knowledge on electrics. I need to compile the resistance/voltage specs on the ignition components for easier and quicker checks.

I will post my findings.

Thanks