Cross Controlling or Counter Steering

Do any of you guys ever use the counter steering method on the VFR while negotiating "high speed" HWY corners?

The reason I ask is I did, riding my 99 back from the Bay area San Fran last May.

The reason I did is that while going thru the pass next to Mt Shasta I entered
some of, (well, most all) those beautiful corners at 90mph and up purdy consistantly.

At the first of some of those corners I just initiated the turn by leaning, but
I started into one and I needed more lean Real Quick with those concrete barrier blocks coming up and instinctively tugged on the opposite bar grip.
The bike responded perfectly and I proceeded with that application for the rest of the 660mi trip.

I know my Buell doesn't like this method much, it likes to turn in purdy much on its own once I get my fore arms level.

Does anybody here do this?

 

Trust me when I tell you this. You are counter-steering every time you turn your bike at anything over walking pace. You don't realize you're doing it, but you've been doing it since you were a kid riding your Schwinn with the banana seat on it. If you don't counter-steer, you are riding incorrectly.

You said you tugged on the opposite grip, right? That's the exact same thing as "Press Right, Go Right." It is entirely possible to turn without counter-steering, it simply takes more effort & the bike will not respond as quickly as it could which it sounds like you found out.

KC-10 FE out...
lane: :usa2:

 

Get the feel by riding in a straight line and watching the bike dip left when you nudge right.

Slower speed turns need less ( or no ) countersteer.

 

+1 if your not counter steering at anything other than slow speeds, your going straight!

 

yeah I'm alright then, my 78 XS11 (back in it's day) this was the only way to ride the thing.

But believe me when I tell you this, My Buell is much different, it has a much steeper fork angle. Its perfered method is knee out, get down, elbows at or below handgrip level, and it actually "turns into the corner". As nuetral as you can get without pressure on either side of the bars the better. It's just like it knows where to go according to lean and speed.

Your left/right knees are like left/right ailerons on the Buell,, its purdy sensitive.

The Buell also has a 2 1/2" Less wheel base than the VFR.

 

counter steering makes the bike lean and turn quicker, much moreeffortless.

 

Thanks guys for the responses,, I agree totally that the VFR favors counter steering,, actually, it made it plain from day one but I thought I would verify with you.

I also wanted to ask if your front tire is showing an unusual wear pattern using this method of steering over any other bike that you might have.

Mine is starting to look like a "half sharpened pencil" when you look down on it from above,, like you used an electric or hand cranked pencil sharpener.
Now this look is subtle, not obvious.

 

I've ridden a few Buells & I can't stand them, for the exact reason you describe. They are way, way too unstable & twitchy. If you like it, that's all that matters.

Are you running Dunlops? Dunflops are notorious for strange wear patterns. Take a pic of your tire & post it up so we can see what you see.

KC-10 FE out...
lane: :usa2:

 

you all may want to read this:
Superbike School :: No B.S. Machine


The Correct Brothers

It shouldn't be alarming to me that riders still question how to steer their motorcycles but it is. Apparently, even after 90 years when it was first observed by the Wright brothers some confusion remains on this subject . Yes, their first engineering attempts were as bicycle manufacturers; the very observant brothers determined that tandem (one wheel in front of the other) wheeled vehicles counter steer. That was and still is correct.
Sources Of Confusion

It is easy to see how confusion arises on the subject of steering for anyone of us who started their riding on pedal bikes. The steering is so light on a bicycle that riders have difficulty in separating the shift of their body mass (leaning into it) with the slight effort it takes to countersteer.

Further confusion arises from word of mouth advice on riding. I have even seen articles in usually credible national magazines extolling the virtues of body mass type steering. Body Steering as it is called. I have surveyed thousands of riders on this point. Most riders still believe that some of the steering is being done with their body mass or weight shift or pressure on the motorcycle's tank or pegs. Their estimates on how effective these are in getting the bike to turn range anywhere from 10% to 90%, some believe all of it is weight shift.
Swoopy Steering

If it weren't so grim, it's almost comical to watch a rider who does not understand how steering is accomplished. You can see them riding down the freeway trying and failing to change lanes by body steering and still appear cool while doing so. I have seen it dozens of times. It goes like this. The rider does a very swoopy upper body swing in the direction he wishes to go but for an agonizing (to me) moment, nothing happens. There is a perceivable lag between the upper body swoop and the bike's deflection from its original course. How terrifying it must be to find that the bike doesn't instantly respond.
Stiffen To Steer

Following that is a stiffening of the rider's upper body. Only then does the bike respond and change lanes. You see how this works? The rider's body is positioned off-center, from his swoop, in the intended direction of the lane change. The stiffening on the bars creates the countersteering action, because he has either pushed on the inside bar or stiffened and pulled on the outside one or a combination of both. This stiffening is actually a mild panic reaction. Many riders have simply learned to live with the lag and to think it is how their bike handles. That is false, a motorcycle responds almost instantly to countersteering.
Vague Technique

Riders have a number of ideas, which are vague and hard for them to describe, on just how their weight shifting accomplish this so called body-steering. "Throwing" their upper body mass to one side or the other (the swoop) is one. Some say they just push down on the inside peg. Some say they pull the bike over with the outside leg against the tank. Some say it is a combination of two or even all three of the above methods. Do they work?

I'll leave it up to the tech boys to figure out the WHY of motorcycle counter- steering. Their job should be to provide a simple demonstration of how it works. The fact is that countersteering is still being argued in the halls of learning with slide rules, Physics formulas and calculators. Many theories exist but no conclusive statement that I know of as to why has yet been reached. Argue on boys.
Clear The Issue

My job is to make riding simple and to clear up conflicting information that a rider may have on the subject of riding. Any confusion translates into reduced control, as in the lag from swoop to lane change, and confidence, as in the bike won't do what I want it to, when I want it to. Riders don't like the uncertainty and love the feeling of confidence. I decided to clarify this steering issue, body vs counter, very simple and very plain. I reasoned that anyone who could see how it works and experience the real steering procedure would have dramatically improved their chances of survival against the perils of 21st Century Earth street riding. Steering must be done and done quickly if a rider has any hope of confidently neutralizing those perils.
Expert Opinions

I was actually in a deep confusion on this subject of body-steering myself. Riders the caliber of Eric Bostrum have told me that they do it to some degree, to help steer. Freddie Spencer has made a statement to that effect and of course Reg Pridmore has made it the banner for his CLASS schools for 15 years. Jason's STAR school has been written up as teaching body steering as well.

With great to good credentials like that it should be so, and even I was a little shaken in my certainty. Maybe there was something in it after all. I hate to miss anything.
The Experiments

For my part, experimenting with pressure on the pegs, the tank, adjusting my body mass and combinations of all three on the bike resulted in nothing I would consider steering. In other words, something that could be used in an emergency maneuver or to aggressively flick the bike into a corner or through a set of esses.

Eventually I arrived at a potential solution to my questions that would eliminate my opinions and/or misunderstanding on the subject.
The Solution

Make a bike that has two sets of bars. One set as normal, the other set would be solid mounted to the frame so they were not connected to and did not rotate the forks. This, as my theory went, would answer the question. And it does.
The Machine

Taking one of our Kawasaki ZX 6Rs and solid mounting a set of bars 8" above the standard ones would positively isolate the various body shifting from the countersteering. If body-steering had any effect it would be simple to show it. I created a bike with that setup. One necessary detail was to mount an additional throttle on the upper, solid mounted, bars so the bike's stability could be maintained as the user rode down the road. So we wound up with two sets of handlebars and two operating throttles on the bike.
Dirty Exceptions

Before I go any further I want to address off-road motorcycles. An off-road motorcycle will easily steer by pressing down on the inside peg, and in conjunction with shifting the upper body mass, will go over pretty easily . Still not what I would call good control but it can be done fairly efficiently.

Again, I am not a true tech guy but it occurs to me that the small contact patch on knobbies or dual sport tires and dirt bike steering geometry, which is not intended to provide an enormous amount of stability at speed, contribute to the reasons why steering results from weight shifts to the degree it does on a dirt bike.
No B.S.

At this writing, we have run nearly 100 riders of all experience levels on this double barred bike. It has made believers out of every single one--in the actuality of countersteering of course. Even at speeds of no more than 20 to 35 mph, no matter how much you tug or push or pull or jump around on the bike, the best we saw was that the bike wiggled and became somewhat unstable. Did it turn? Not really. Would it turn at higher speed? Absolutely not. Could you avoid something in your path? No Way. Could anyone quick turn the bike? Hopeless! The best result was one of my riding coaches. He got into a full hang-off position and was able to persuade the bike, by jerking on it, to start on a wide, wide arc in the paddock at Laguna Seca, a piece of asphalt that is about 500 X 800 feet. Like turning an oil tanker ship, start at noon and be on the turning arc at around 1:00 PM. It wasn't smooth and it wasn't very effective.

We now call this bike "The NO BS Bike". There are no doubts in anyone's mind after they ride it that they have been countersteering all along. No doubts.

You can hear riders, who believed in the body-steering method, laughing in their helmets at 100 yards away once they get those solid mounted bars in their hands and try to body-steer the bike. They just shake their heads. No B.S.
Dangerous Misconceptions

Now if you want to look a little further into this, what you will see is this; riders who still labor under the misconception that they body-steer are devoting themselves in a system that can do a great deal of actual harm. Firstly, it is seriously misguided to add an additional series of actions to the steering process. When it is quick, critical steering that is needed to avoid something, that lag I have observed so many times in street riders, could cost you your hide.

Adding 2/10ths to 5/10ths of a second, or more, to the steering procedure at 60 mph means that you have just gone another 18 to 44 feet, or more, down the road before you started to avoid that muffler lying in your path. Kids, don't try this at home.

The way things are going there will be warning labels on motorcycles in the not too distant future.

WARNING: THIS VEHICLE COUNTER-STEERS. IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND COUNTERSTEERING DO NOT RIDE. SEEK THE HELP OF A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL Riding Coach.
Bull Steering

Another recognizable error, resulting in excess effort used to steer the motorcycle, is the attempt to turn the bike by bulldogging the bars. An interesting combination of pulling up on one and pushing down on the other rodeo style, like bull wrestling. No, repeat No, steering results from this. None, zero, nadda, niente. Riders who think they can twist the bike into a turn in this fashion simply have another false idea and get tired. The Bottom Line

Steering a motorcycle results from the process of pushing the inside bar forward, the same angle and direction the forks rotate in the steering head bearings. You can also pull on the outside bar. You can do both push and pull. That is what turns it, that is all that turns it with any degree of accuracy, efficiency, quickness or smoothness. That and only that, No B.S.

Keith Code

 

sometimes it's "the more thats said the less it means"

There's about a zillion different geometric configurations of motorcycle designs out there and to state that they all steer the same is a bit nuts.

Thats All.

 

Every bike I have ever ridden and that is probably in the hundreds, steers the same way but they all respond differently to the inputs you make which is why I love them all so much!!

Like stated above, we are all counter steering and don't even know it till someone teaches you to realize what you are doing subconsciously so you can then do it consciously. This is the fundamental principle of riding a bike.

 

If you watch closely at some motorcycle racing events you can actually see the front wheel turning the opposite direction of the intended direction. That's how hard some of those racers push and goes to show you counter-steering in action.

 

I think the most extreme example may be supermotard or flat track racing but there is no doubt that Moto GP has some of the best slow motion video. I really enjoy watching the Faster videos for the super shots of rear wheel drifts that turn into power wheelies. This kind of action just doesn't happen with traction control unfortunately.

 

Really? Is that what you see?

 

The actual steering input is soo minute that it is hard to detect especially at high speed. Now the opposite is true at low speeds where the actual input is quite large and easily seen. There was a video clip on here somewhere of Japanese VFR riders negotiating an obstacle course as part of their training, I think they were Police, and you can clearly see the riders agressive inputs. I will look for the link.

 

Have a look at this. It's not what I was looking for but it may help.

YouTube - Counter Steering - How to Ride a Motorbike - Part 3

 

OK.... Sit on your chair in the kitchen..... put you arms out like you are riding... Now move the chair up,till your fist are just above and even with the edge of the table(with out touching the table)...... Now lean your "body" like you would if you're on your Buell.... after you're in your lean, look where your hands are now........

 

Weasel.... Did you try it, and what did you find out?

 

yeah,, but you still can't see my cards from there:tongue:

nah lol,, in all honesty I didn't really state any leaning was going on, it's mostly a mere
knee movement which initiates the bike roll,, just like an aileron on a airplane.

You've watched the bike races surely, its the same thing.

The Buell 1125r has more of a race bike geometry than the VFR. It does act much different
when it lays over going into a corner,, it's nature is to "turn-into" the corner.

Don't mean you can't counter steer while your in the corner to adjust your position or
while exiting.

It's a different animal to be sure,, and not bad at all once your use to it.
weas