Considering a Power Commander

Earlier this year I purchased a 2007 VFR and overall, I like the bike however, I am disappointed in the smoothness of the power delivery below 6000 rpm. There are several flat spots where you give it throttle and the bike stumbles, hesitates or does not accelerate, apply more throttle and the bike responds.

I have read quite a few threads about the PCIII and the PCV upgrades VFR owners have installed and most people think it is the solution to the problem. As I understand it, the main difference between the two is the PCV has an additional throttle position (15%), tune by gear and can be used with the Autotune 200 module.

I have the stock exhaust and I don’t plan on changing it anytime soon. I also have the stock air filter, should I change it to a K&N before I install the PC?

There are quite a few comments about which PC can be used with which year VFR and also a lot of discussion about the various maps. If I Purchase a PCV I think it has to be the 2009 model as they do not list a PCV for a 2007 VFR. From the threads, the maps are the same as the PCIII maps with the exception of the 15% throttle position.

Having never had a PCIII/PCV, I assume you change maps via a laptop with a USB cable. How easy is it to change maps?

I do not want to spend hours changing maps and fine tuning the system, I want something that will work well (not race tuned) with the least amount of time. In relation to the Autotune 200, it’s not an issue of money, just time spent tinkering, I don't have the time. I have spent countless hours in the shop tinkering with race bikes and cars and now I want to ride a nice smooth bike without the hassle of fiddling with it. Additionally, I am not Randy Road Racer trying to squeeze every ounce of power from the motor, just smooth and reliable power delivery.

So, I am looking for recommendations should I get a

PCIII, install the cozye map and ride it
PCV, install the cozye modified map and ride it
PCV with AT200, tinker with it and ride it
Other, you tell me

Thanks, Tom

 

get a pcv and auto tune module. install it and let the auto tune do the tinkering for you...
thats the best advice that i can give you. and im starting to think that this is what i should have done. if you get the pcv and auto tune you wont have to worry about when you modify the bike and when you tune it.

 

One major addition to the PCV, that model will self correct for alltitude, temperture, and humidity. It also has a bypass mode for higher mileage. Although it sounds like the PCIII will do everything you need without spending the extra scratch. One piece of advice however in regard to the flat spots. I ran several easily downloaded maps and not one of them worked for the 8- 10hp loss ( worse than a flat spot ) between 5800rpm and VTEC engagement. I finally had to cough up $300 to get a custom map. That said Dynojet did not have a specific map for 2bros. so another pipe or OEM may be a differant story. It did immediately stop the surging below 3000rpm regardless of the map I was using. If you goto a K&N do it before installing the power commander. K&N may not do to much for you with a stock exhaust but it will save you some money over the long haul and breath a little better aswell.

 

Like havcar, I couldn't find a canned map that smoothed power delivery like I wanted. I finally took the bike in for a tune. Issues resolved!

 

For the price of the PCIII plus a dyno tune, you can buy PCV and Autotune and never have to worry about it again. Plus, no one is going to dyno tune the every gear, at every thottle position, at every RPM. It would take days and cost you huge money! Just saying.

 

autotune is not what you guys think.

you still need a custom map.

all the auto tune does is recalculate for humidity, temp, etc. and then auto adjust for it to keep the same afr so the bike will always be on par to the fuel map.

where as a pcIII will run the exact map no matter temp, humidity etc..

so if the air is more or less dense, the % of fuel it delivers is gonna be the same, and your afr will actually differ depending on the temp.

with the PCIV it uses the o2 sensor to monitor the exhaust gasses and then recalculates to bring the afr back to what the predermined afr should be.

basically with a PCIII you have a set map and it will always throw the same amount of fuel at the determined RPM and throttle ranges

PCIV same idea, but it actually monitors the exhaust gas and says hey it was a little lean. rich here or there and we need to compensate for that to bring it to the designated afr that is determined in the map.


the auto une misconception is that you can put it on the bike and it tunes its self to whatever is done to the bike.. well it doesnt.. it recalibrates for changes in the air so it will be spot on for the afr desired via the tune put on the PC

 

Actually, not quite true.

The Autotune, over time, can be used to create that custom map.

Here's how it works.

When using a Autotune with a PCV, you have 3 maps, The standard map that we know from the PCIII, the air/fuel (A/F) ratio target map, and a trim map. As kind of a side note, when doing map by gear (which is a great PCV feature), you actually have 24 maps (3x6).

Anyway, lets start with the standard map. It's very much like the old PCIII map. It has "cells" that are set for a percentage of fuel that is either added or taken away at a crosspoint of RPM and throttle position. It does this by lengthening or shorting the pulse at the fuel injector. The PCV adds a new 15% throttle column to this table which is very important for correct "cruise". This table is set by dyno time, "riding and playing", or a combo of both. Most of the dyno runs that I've seen involved a "tech" downloading the map from the Dynojet web site that most closely matches the bikes setup then making a couple full throttle runs. The "tech" will then tweeks the numbers a little in the 100% throttle column to get the most power, adjust a few another numbers here and there and calls it good. Good "techs" might try smooth the VTEC a little. For the most part unless you drive around full throttle all day, they didn't do much to make your bike run any better than what you could have done by loading the file yourself.

Another side note.

Starting with the '06 model, the VFR fuel mapping takes current gear selection into account when deciding fuel delivery. This means using a PCIII on a '06 or newer is, well, useless. Also consider that if your "tech" just ran it out in one gear, common, even with a PCV, you're going to be out of whack.

The A/F target map looks much like the prevouis map accept that it's populated with the actual A/F that you would like to see for that throttle position / RPM cross-point. This table is included with PCV map, however you can change it to what ever you'd like, which I did. Just don't get too crazy here.

The last map is the trim map. This is the map that the Autotune fills in while you ride. This map is combined, real time, with the first map to control the injector pulse width. Example, lets say at 30% throttle 4000 RPM you're standard table has +10 and the trim table for that same cell has -4, the next time you hit that cell, the PCV will alter the pulse width by +6%. The trim cells are consistently update, as needed, by the Autotune/PCV.

A very important feature in the PCV setup for the Autotune, is that you can limit the max trim levels in both the positive and negative direction.

At anytime, you can connect your computer to the PCV and look at all the tables. You can also "accept" the trim table into the standard table. That would then mean, in the above example, your standard table would now read +6 in the 30% throttle, 4000 RPM cell and your trim table would read 0 for the same cell location.

So..... You take the map that closest matches your bike (PCIII maps can be made into PCV maps), ride, accept, ride, accept, ride, accept............ and over time you'll create the standard map for you bike setup. I started my max, plus change, as 15% and max, negative, as 10%. Over time I've knocked it down to plus 7% and minus 5%. This is where it will stay, to help compensate for weather, fuel, attitude, and whatever.

Keep in mind, that the reason for the standard map is because checking the exhaust with an O2 sensor to determine mixture, is working in the past tense. That is, the mixture has already been made and fired. The standard table is what that mixture is made with, before the O2 sensor even smelled it.

The only "problem" with Autotune that I've found is that it has no way of knowing manifold pressure. If you decelerate, but are not at zero throttle, the Autotune will see the really lean mixture from the stock map and try and "fix" to match the A/F. This is fine, until you hit that cell later and it has to correct it, after the fact, but good for the next go around.

I fixed this with a adjustable vacuum switch, set just above cruise vacuum, that opens the Autotune "on" connection so that it doesn't alter the trim map under deceleration. Now everything about it works great. Couldn't be happier!

 

From their website...

Looks like it needs a map.

EDIT: After seeing codes last post I am thoroughly confused.. NM

 

Really? There are lots of people using the PCIII on their 06+ bikes. You would think that Dyno Jet would have known that very important information before making their unit.

 

I guess "useless" was a little strong. There would be some use.

What was Dynojet going to do? At the time they didn't have anything but the PCIII to sell, so they just did the best they could. Or maybe they didn't know.

I believe the reason Honda made this change was to make the emission testing window smaller and the bike run better in non-testing areas. No proof, just my best guess.


Here's how I found this out. When I changed the gearing and used a Speedhealer to correct the speedo error (-11.2%). I had done this over the winter along with new pipes, a BMC filter, and a PCIII.

From day one, I had this surge problem at low throttle, low RPM and mostly in 3rd gear!?!? I thought the map was too lean so I started throwing more fuel at it in the areas. It seemed to get better, but I was never happy. I must have tried 30 maps and was thinking of trading it in, I just didn't enjoy riding it.

Well before a big trip this summer, I decided to change the spocket back to stock. After changing the spocket, I set the Speedhealer to -4.5 for stock speedo error (11.2%-6.7% for the gear change). I then went for a test ride and low and behold, the surging was gone, totally! I stopped in a parking lot and set the healer back to -11.2 The surging came back, just as before! I then went home loaded a "normal" map for my mods and holy crap, thing ran great.

A couple weeks later, I had my PCV/w Autotune and I played around with the speedhealer while watching the A/F, and it clearly shows, the bike calls for differant fueling depending on gear.

The gear is determined by the ECU comparing RPM to shaft speed and using math to figure the gear. In the math, it uses a range, or window, of figures to account for a small amount of error. At -11.2% correction, at that low of RPM, the ECU thought I was in 4th instead of 3rd and was using the wrong gear map, way lean (emissions lean town cruise). You wouldn't notice it in 1st or 2nd because the gears are much further apart and in 4th, 5th and 6th the maps are more closer to each other, also the increase gearing muffles the surging. When you get deeper in the throttle, leanness is the gear map is more hidden by the richness of the increase in throttle percentage.

I posted something similar on VFRD and about 5 people with '06 or newer, that had some type of speed correction set above -10%, had the same problem. Everybody with '05 and older had no problems.

By the way, the fix for the speed corrector on '06 and newer is to re-wire so the correction is on the wire feeding the speedo and not the ECU. As long as the stock relationship between the output shaft (speed) and RPM remain stock, all is well.

 

+1 I just went to the Dyno Jet site and when on the PCV page select your bike. If you select and 06 like I did the recommended parts are PCIII and O2 elems.

Cause I was wondering these very things discussed on this page. I went to the MFG site.

 

They only recommend it so that you'll buy it.

This is one of the biggest retailer in the US of Dynojet, and they're doing it, with a 2 year warranty! (After I did it)

Dynojet Power Commander V Five

At some point, they decided not to test the PCV on models that they had all ready tested the PCIII on. I'm guessing, the given the age of the design, the PCIII has a much larger profit margin. If they support the PCV back to pre-'09 models, they'd exchange that big profit margin for a little tiny one. They had to produce the PCV and sell it at a small margin to compete with Bazzaz, Cobra, and Jardine. They're making the big money, for now, on the PCIII. So go ahead, drink the Coolaid.

 

I just got in the mail today a used PClll I ordered from a member here. Reading this, did I make a dumb mistake?! I did not want to spend the "coin" on a PCV & Tune. Someone please tell me it's not "USELESS". I read all the info I could and hope I was not mislead. Its hard to believe all the people who have a PClll and report wounderful results are wrong.

 

I have the PCIII on my '07 anniv. and it works great! Smoothed out the delivery noticeably. I am happy.
I used a modified Cozye map from the VFRD website, it's on that site to download. I can't remember who modified it but its easy enough to find on VFRD.

ace57:wink:

 

Thanks for the information....

 

I am still running stock pipes. Can someone please tell me the best map to load for the stock set up. Thanks!

 

Should be a map on dyno jet site for that application. I am sure however that many more folks that will have some maps to offer.

 

Sorry, useless bad term. Just not as useful.

Hey, if you're buying used, PCIII is a hell of a deal. (well, depending on price of course) It will work just fine, and yes, it will help.

If you're buying new, its a no brainer, get the PCV! In the end, they cost about the same and the PCV can do soooo much more.

It's like going to the store shopping for a DVD player and finding a DVD player and Blu-Ray, of the same quailty, at the same price. Why would you ever buy the DVD player over the Blu-ray? Sure you might not have any movies on Blu-ray right now, but wouldn't be nice to have the option?

 

$ 190. shipped, off an 08. Thanks you made me feel better...I think.

 

information is great stuff. the proof is in the dynomometer graph.