Compression highjinks: Marvel Mystery Oil?

I have some questions about compression on an old 1982 Magna V45.
I have had a set back that has come as a result of false compression readings made when the bike was tested dead and cold and after 10 + years in storage (last registered Apr 1997). The bike looked like it had been taken care of by the previous and first owner. I did not actually buy from the first owner but from the guy who got there first and then turned around and sold the bike and unfinished paperwork to me for a "take it as it is for $230" offer. Eventually I got around to setting it up in the garage and managed to hot wire it so I could do a compression test. I did spray light weight oil in the cylinders because I expected the cylinder walls to be dry after 10 + years of sitting. With the bike 10 years cold and counting I got compression in Cylinder order from #1 to #4 as 170,135,145,& 155. After a head and cam caps torquing and very careful valve adjustment the new compression was 190,190,195,210. This was heartening and I went full speed ahead with repairs expecting no problems from the motor. These included a complete carburetor rebuild, complete front brake rebuild, and some repairs to turn signals etc. This was my first V45. I had worked on V30's and 500 interceptors up to this point. I jumped to conclusions about the similarity in the carburetors between the V30 and V45 and tore them apart without separation of the carb jets etc by position or cylinder placement. VFRWorld had to bail me out of that mistake. Thanks for the information on where to install the carb jets and the springs in the V45 and V65 models. So, now here I am 5 or 6 weeks later and I am trying to balance the carbs in prep for a Labor day trip and I can't get them to sync. [/U]
Tried for several nights in a row with no luck. I have a hand made 4 position manometer that worked well enough on the two V30's I sync'd with it. But try as I might I could not get the 750 carbs to come into balance. Tonight I started poking around and my first try was to pull plug wires when the bike was running. Long and short of that was that when I pulled #1 plug wire the bike acted as if it had never heard of cylinder #1. Literally no change. If I pulled any of the other three cylinder's wires the engine would die. It died immediatly when I pulled cylinders # 3 and #4. It chugged for a few cycles before dieing when I pulled cylinder #2. There was something wrong with Cylinder #1. I first pulled the plug and installed it and grounded it to the cylinder outside the plug hole. I ran the bike with the plug grounded externally and it made nice sparks. Not an ignition problem!

I grabbed my compression guage( a 25 year old Proto tool that I implicitly trust with a flexible hose and threaded plug hole adaptor) and installed it in the empty socket and started the engine with the three other cylinders intact. The motor ran and my compression guage read 100 psi for Cylinder #1. Whoa!! What happened? I got 190 psi after I adjusted the valves?? Now I get 100psi? I proceeded to test all of the cylinders. Of course the motor is warm now. I get , in order of cylinder number: 100, 120, 145, 150 psi respectivily. Pretty much the same result I got from pulling plug wires. Cylinders 3 and 4 died immediately. They were doing all the work and with cylinder #2 the engine eventually died. But removing plug wire #1 seemed to make no difference to the remaining cylinders. Cylinder #1 is doing no work relative to its fellow cylinders. Cyl #1 is the initial carb, used to set up idle speed on V45 bikes. If I can't count on Cylinder #1 I can't set up the carbs. I'm dead in the water.

Next I try the old squirt oil in the cylinders trick to see if it's rings or valves or head gasket etc. Cylinder #1 comes up to 145 psi with oil. Cylinder #2 sees 175 psi with oil and Cylinders #3 and #4 see 220 psi with oil. How so?

It seems strange that I would get that great a variation in cylinder wear from a bike that looks like it was cared for and used for more than just show boating around. But regardless of the care it got from the original owner it appears to be screwed. The bike has about 61K on the clock. Seems too soon for piston slap and major blowby?

Sad to say that there is some sort of rattle in Cylinder #1 when the motor is idleing. It sounds like a bad cam follower or poor valve lash problem. But I know I was careful when I did the valve adjustment. have done many many valve adjustments in my lifetime. The V45 is not that hard to adjust. The hard part is getting the valve cover off the rear cylinder. Maybe it has lost a piston pin on cylinder #1? But why has cylinder #2 gone nearly as bad? It is all baffling to me. But now I understand why I can't balance the carburetors. I have one screwed cylinder (piston?) and another failing cylinder? What to do? "PART IT OUT" IS ALWAYS a disagreeable OPTION!

Marvel Mystery Oil? Is it possible I have some stuck rings on cylinders #1 and #2? Could putting something in the fuel like Marvel Mystery Oil or maybe the stuff they put in 2 stroke marine engines (Yamaha makes it "Yamalube", there is a competitor called SeaFoam) to get rid of carbon (softens up the deposits) possibly rectify the low compression problem by allowing the rings to free up? Ever heard of anything like this before?? I really didn't want to tear the 750 apart. Any Ideas other than tearing the motor apart?

 

Maybe a valve is sticking or something in between valve and seat. You should be able to put it at top dead center on compression and use compressed air in the plug hole, should hear air leakage thru carb, exhaust or crankcase depending on where the leak is from intake or exhaust valve or rings. If you have a valve noise I would think a valve is not closing leaving a larger cam follower gap. We just had a stuck valve on a Lycoming (carbon on stem) we finally got it to seat after popping the valve and turning it while spraying it with various chemicals.

 

thanks captb, its a possibility

Its a possibility, but squirting oil in the cylinder and retaking the compression (I usually move the cyclinder up and down with a lick or two of the starter before I take the compression with oil) usually makes it clear if a valve is burnt or sticking or a seat is fallen or otherwise damaged. If the cylinder has a burnt or otherwise open valve the oil will be pushed out past the opening and no increase in compression will be noticed. For example, cylinder #1 had its compression increase from 100 without oil to 145 with oil. If a valve were sticking I would have seen little or no rise in compression because the oil would have been pushed out with the air through the errant valve opening. What I am more interested in are the chemicals that were used to de carbonize the sticking valve. I googled "ring free" and I got a lot stuff back on a fuel additive that is supposed to be the stuff that Chevron:reg: puts into its gasoline (called Techron). Its supposed to keep your motor clean and it seems that it does. There is a product that is essentially "techron" for boat motors that is made by Yamaha marine division. You put this stuff (very expensive) in your gas and it keeps the 2 strokes from gunking up with carbon (typical two stroke oiling problem). There is a competative product called "Seafoam" that is essentially the same stuff.

Then it turns out that "Marvel Mystery Oil" is essentially the same sort of stuff and has been on the market for years. Google "ring free" and you will have something to occupy you for the next hour if you follow the lead over the internet. Turns out that "ring free" is in the Yamaha product name.
I'm trying to locate someone who has tried to loosen up stuck rings on a motor thats been sitting for 10 or more years, who might have tried to use "Marvel Mystery Oil". But if you know what chemicals were used to persuade the carbon off the valves of a Lycoming (Diesel?) I would like to know the name of them.

One of the threads in the "ring free" leads told of a guy who put straight acetone in his gas in the expectation of cleaning the carbon out of his cylinders etc and ended melting all the plastics down in the fuel system. Seems he ended up with a $1600 bill to clean it all out of his fuel system for his trouble.:crazy: So its best to know what might have worked before dumping stuff into the gasoline :wink:.

 

I have used seafoam quite a bit. It really seems to have helped my VF500F a little bit in cleaning up the carbs the resst of the way.

What I might suggest to free up the rings would be put some of it directly into the cylinder, through the spark plug hole. Let it soak for a while, then crank the engine over to expell the excess. Changing the oil now would be a good idea, before starting it, as some of the stuff would have surely gotten past the rings and into the sump. You may want to put a few drops of oil in there and crank it a bit as the stuff has washed down the cylinder walls. Put it all back together put some seafoam in the tank (maybe 1/3 bottle?) and run it it at varying rpms for a while, Don't just let it idle, you need to work it some to try to get the rings freed up.

 

Make sure to verifly that it is indeed the rings to knwo exactly what needds to be done, first!

 

I've never had to free rings but have worked on several engines that have sat for 10+ years. I've always used fogging oil and let it sit in there for a bit. I would spray it in each cylinder, crank it over by hand a few times, and spray some more in each. Then I would let it sit a full day and repeat the same process several days in a row. Most of the time after everything was running well I would do the Seafoam treatment through the vacuum lines and in the fuel.

I'm not sure if this will help for a stuck ring if that is what ends up being wrong, but it is food for thought.

 

Thanks to jporter12 and meatloaf: on the money men!

I went shopping this am and found MARVEL MYSTERY OIL on sale for LABOR DAY at $3.49 for the large bottle at Auto Zone-out. I took two bottles. they also had Seafoam for $9.99 for a 12 oz bottle and they had it in a Spray Can with an added goofball name like "BOOM" or something. I read all the labels and it seems that you can use the stuff in the gasoline, as a topical application (the seafoam spray bottle recomendation is to spray it on the seized parts when they are warm) and in the oil (Marvel Mystery recommends a 20% solution of MMO and engine oil. I brought my purchases home and tried it out. I first mixed some MMO in with my oil applicator at about 30% to oil and doused the low cylinders (1&2) left the mix to soak into the space between the cylinder walls and the pistons for about an hour while I screwed with a clutch slave problem I have to figure out. After letting it soak into the cylinders I made up a mixture of 1.5 onz MMO to gasoline and put this in my feeder bottle. Then I added 1.5 cups of MMO to the engine oil. I put the plugs back in and started the motor. The exhaust spewed acrid grey smoke like crazy while I let the cup of fuel spiked with MMO percolate through the carbs. I varied the engine speed during this warm up by moving twisting the idle adjustment screw under #1 carb as the bike warmed up. Most of the time I had the motor running around 3 to 5 k revs. Then I made up a mix of a quart of fuel and 2 onz of MMO and hooked up the carb balanceing device ( a 4 way manifold manometer. This hand made tool uses ATF rather than mercury for its fluid. Simply a balancing device. It performed better than it had ever done before when I had attempted to balance the carbs. I could almost believe that the carbs were balanced.

I ran the motor for the entire quart of fuel and MMO mix. I varied speed with the idle adjustment screw under the #1 carb. I ran it from 1.5k to 5k rpms. It was definitly improved with only the small amount of time that I had allowed the MMO to soak in. Going at the problem through the oil, the fuel and directly applying it where I thought it might make the biggest difference (the cylinders with the lowest compression) has made it appear like cylinder #1 has started to do some work. Previously the manometer would have the ATF sucked out of the #1 line. Now it has settled in with Cylinder #2 right next to it in height. Cylinder #1 has stopped growing itself out the top of the manometer. It appeared that the rings were actually coming free as I watched the motor run. It would back fire both through the exhaust and through the intakes from time to time and then it would seem to shift the pattern of the suction as each manometer line shifted up or down without any balance screw manipulation while I watched.

Something that may be bad or dangerous about going for the oil treatment recommended by Marvel Mystery Oil is that when the bike heated up the oil light came on. Adding MMO to the oil at the recommended 20% (1 in 5 mix) may be a little much. I am also thinking that I need to dump the oil although its not mentioned by MMO in the instructions on the back of the bottle. They recommend that you replace 1/5 of the typical oil change volume with MMO. My oil light was coming on pretty constant with 1.5 cups of MMO to 3 qts of oil. I think maybe half or less than half the amount I put in might be recommended. And MMO seems to think you should then run the motor with the MMO in the oil for the complete oil change cycle. I don't think so. I think its a great idea as far as trying to free up stuff that is stuck up by carbon and the goo that is left behind by evaporated fuel and poorly ignited air fuel mix. But the thinning of the oil is a problem I dont want to face as an alternative to cleaning up the internals of the engine.

If it works and I have a reasonably healthy 29 year old V45 as a result of using MMO or Seafoam , well screw me silly:thumbsup:. That's something I could have used for years if I had only thunk to do it.:redface:. Such an easy fix that may have kept an old car or boat going for a year or two longer. Can't beat that with a stick!:biggrin:

 

I would definitely NOT run that stuff in the oil! The short time that you did is probably ok, but I would get it out of there ASAP! With the age of the bike, I would have skipped putting it in the oil, and even changed the oil before starting it. I avoid putting ANYTING in the crankcase other than oil. I run seafoam in the fuel though.

 

Stinking up the place and smoking out the neighbors!

I've been at it for a coupla days now. I throughly gassed the neighborhood with the smoke from burning out the oil and MMO mixture from about 4 or 5 direct applications (once over night) of Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) into the cylinders. I usually squirt three shots of the mixture into each cylinder when its still warm and let it sit for several hours. The long overnight attempt I put in more MMO mix in the morning and turned the crank over a few licks with the starter. Around noon I started it up again. I was using my manometer gismo and it appeared that cylinder #1 had settled in at a nice level equal to that of cylinder #2. Before it would run away. This, it may turn out, is the fault of the materials used in the making of the manometer (the vertical tubes are made of acrilyic plastic and are easily broken). Anywho, the carbs appeared to balance or at lest they were much improved.

I have a problem with the clutch master which I started a different thread on. The 13 years in storage resulted in the brake fluid turning to acid and then to dust, which KO'd the inside of both the clutch master and slave cylinders. So when I wasn't worrying over the compression/stuck up rings problem, I was knee deep and up to my elbows in hydraulic fluid trying to find something to work in place of the original cylinders, and getting that creepy feeling from having brake fluid all over my hands and slipping on the floor of the garage.

So anyway, last night I switched back to the compression problem and fussed with the manometer again. Started it up with the last of the one gallon of fuel I used for ths exercise. Low and behold, the carbs appeared to be balanced. But Cylinder #1 was spitting a lot of fuel back through the intake port. I could see the fuel being puffed out through the carb as the bike warmed up. Cylinder #1 really seemed like it had a sticking or burnt valve. I did not want to but I broke down and took the rear valve cover off to have a look see inside at the rear cams. I checked my valve lash setting, It was perfect. I looked at the cams as hard as I could, they were worn but I had put a modified oiler system on and it appeared to be working. All parts of the cams and the inside of the valve cover were covered in oil.

When I was looking down the throat of cyl # 1's carb I looked at the other carbs too. I could look down on #3 and #4. They were running with their pistons jumping up and down but were not spitting back fuel (Cylinder #2 carb is obscured by the head of the bike). Cylinder #1 did not appear to be jumping like 3 & 4. It seemed to sit there nice and steady until it backfired through the carb. So, being the dumb ass that I am I completly took my eyes off the monometer while I poked and prodded the pistons to see if they were free to open close and other useless sticking of my fingers down the throats of the carbs just to prove that I wasn't afraid. And in the course of doing this prodding and probing the manometer went out of balance and cylinder #1 sucked most of the ATF out of my jury rigged manometer. What made me pay attention was the fact that this caused cylinder #1 to smooth out and stop spitting. I just stood there, mouth agape, in the middle of the night, bothering the neighbors with my high speed idling 750 and watched the nearly empty manometer vibrating what was left of the ATF and listening to the fact that the backfiring had stopped. That was when I took the valve cover off to see if I had set the valves incorrectly or left a lock nut loose.

Some where in my life as a mechanic I heard or read that running ATF through an operating motor was a valid method for removing carbon. I'm so old that I can't remember where or how or when I heard this. I never tried it. But I tried it last night and it seemed to work! If the intake valves were carboned or gummed up from setting for 13 years in a garage, then when that cool ATF hit those warm intake valves there must have been a powerful cleansing, powerful cleansing, lord be praised. Hallalullia! The spitting stopped. Now children, I have to warn you that you can't know how it happened. You just have to accept that it was a miracle. I had placed some hand made jets in the flex lines to dampen out the sharp ups and downs that my gismo manometer was experienceing. And somehow I managed to meter out the few tablespoones of ATF that are in my manometer contraption in just the right proportions. So don't try this trick in the privacy of your own garage or kitchen or bathroom. Remember to always play it safe rather than sorry. And remember that I did not actually see it happen because I had my nose stuck up the rubber velocity stacks of the 750 at the time the incident transpired. Miracle, miracle, miracle, one in a million. You had to be there.

It was after the miracle that I removed the rear valve cover. I fully expected to find that because of age and my loss of short term memory, I had left a lock nut on an intake valve loose. No such luck. Everything was copacetic. Was something wrong with me? Time to check the compression. Engine was warm, I pulled all the plugs and I got the following compression readings in order from 1 thru 4: 220#, 220#,200#, 210#. That was with a fully charged battery and about 20 or 30 minutes after cylinder #1 had swallowed all the ATF. I was amazed. 3 days ago I was blubbering about cylinder #1 being 100 psi. And I checked that number at least 3 or 4 times with the same compression guage. Later last night I checked the compression again (about half an hour later). 215#,200#,200#, 205#. I looked at my factory V45 manual: Spec was 184 +/- 24. I was on the high side of like new compression?? Did I ever have a problem? I forget?

Now on to the damned clutch cylinder problem. Then change the oil out. Then, maybe I can ride, I hope, I hope, I hope.
DKC