I have been shifting a fair amount of my upshifts w/o the clutch and it shifts silky smooth no catching, grinding or any other noise (6gen). Just wanted some feedback on what this could possibly harm. My thinking is if it doesn't sound or feel bad it probably isn't.
I do it on my 5th gen quite a bit and I don't seem to have any problems with it as long as I let off the throttle for a split second.
No clutch is the way to go. Sometimes I use it for the 1-2 shifts because they can be really notchy without it. It really depends on load/rpm/etc. If it feels good and there are no weird noises then you are ok.
You'll wear out the dogs on the gears. How much depends on the load, the rpm and how quick you are with the throttle. No real reason for it on the street, unless you like seeing the inside of your tranny every few thousand miles.
According to this article, it's not worth the effort: Riding Skill Series: Sport Bike Clutchless Upshifting Note: Corrected link
Thanks for the heads up on SportRider.com Driving Tips, that particular tip is GOA (gone on arrival) at the present time but lots of the other tips look useful. I take it from the tittle the short version is don't use the clutch. I drove big rigs over the road for a while and only used the clutch for complete stops. I guess it just depends on the particular tranny. If it grinds "Bad" if it doesn't "Good". The big trucks don't have syncronizers like a car so you have to match engine speed to tranny speed. I guess the bikes are something different.
Let's not be silly GenLightening. I've been doing this for 15 years and have not ruined any gear dogs yet. I ride hard too, not normal street riding for most people. If the shifts are smooth it is not causing ANY damage at all. Don't forget - these gearboxes were made to shift without a clutch.
Hmmmm. That article link isn't working for me. I'd like to see what's said. As far as I know, clutchless upshifts are harmless. My '95 slips up a gear effortlessly when spinning just over 6K rpm. I do it occasionally just for kicks, not as a regular practice, and unless I was pulling up on the lever brutally at all the wrong engine speeds, I wouldn't think twice about damaging anything.
Nothing silly, there's a reason it's called "bang shifting". It does cause wear on the edges of the dogs and faces of the shift forks. When it rounds the dogs enough, that's when it starts popping out of gear. And if that's left long enough, the shift forks can bend and then break. Then there's the shock (mostly from inexperianced riders) to the gear teeth. Even billet race gears come apart, and they were designed to take the stress. This is worse case of course. I've torn a number of trannys apart and a set of clutch plates is way cheaper than a tranny rebuild. I've never heard of "these gearboxes were made to shift without a clutch". I'd like more info on that statement. He asked if it caused any harm, and since I have seen the effects of it, I thought he should have both sides of the story.
Thanks for the update Molten! Focus was primarily on track riding so I don't think I'll be changing my habits based on that info. Can't argue the point that clutches are cheaper than trannies. I've always felt the same way about aggresive engine braking....brake pads are way easier to install than clutch packs. Similar to the clutchless shift, I do engine brake, but not exclusively or excessively. Maybe some track riding guys will chime in about their habits on closed courses. Clutchless only?
I've repaired my share of gearboxes too. I've got a VF1000R that I'm finishing up right now for a guy. I can say that more than likely the bad gear dogs have nothing to do with using the clutch or not. It has more to do with proper use of your left foot than your left hand. The gearboxes do not have synchros and are constant mesh. It's common knowledge that these are meant to be shifted without a clutch. 'Bang shifting' as you call it only happens to novices. All of my bikes shift perfect without the clutch. In the case of my VTR it is actually more likely to grind a gear WITH the clutch.
First off, I checked out your site. You've got some neat products. You're doing now, what I did to my 1000F 18 years ago. But you get to use parts I would have killed for back then! <I've repaired my share of gearboxes too. I've got a VF1000R that I'm finishing up right now for a guy. I can say that more than likely the bad gear dogs have nothing to do with using the clutch or not. It has more to do with proper use of your left foot than your left hand.> True enough, timing is everything. And more so when told the clutch is not used. <The gearboxes do not have synchros and are constant mesh.> That means the mainshaft gears are always engaged with the output shaft gears. Nothing to do with the dogs. Even with a clutch there is always going to be wear on them from the sideways movement of the gears. They start off with a bevel that engages with the gear next to it. When shifted with any load (on or off the throttle) they will rub and eventually round the corners off. When used properly, they will last 10s of thousands of miles. <It's common knowledge that these are meant to be shifted without a clutch.> Again, 40 years and I've never heard that. Yes, they can be, but it's not recommended. Racers can do it because their motors get torn down a few more times than a street bike. I didn't and there weren't many quicker than me on the first lap. Out of 100 or so starts I missed maybe 4 or 5 holeshots. With a hydraulic clutch no less. <'Bang shifting' as you call> That's a commonly known term that originated about 50+years ago, otherwise known as shifting without the clutch. And again, the original post asked a simple question and I felt that telling him there will be absolutley no damage to the tranny is doing a disservice. I should ask, is your "15 years of doing this" on the same bike, as a daily driver?
To be honest with you all, I don't know if there is damage done clutchless or not. It is common knowledge that these parts are designed to ware down. Either way, someone is going to have to change some parts sooner or later. Lets just hope for later than sooner.
I have learned a lot from this debate it sounds like I am probably safe with my technique of slight let off of throttle to take load off tranny and gentle nudge up on gearshift. I appreciate all the educated advise on the topic it has been insightful. I am curious how the electrict shift on my atv (rancher350) works without damaging the transmission.
