Battery, bad gas or electrical issue

Went to start 03 Vfr800 today (first warm day in almost 3 months). Brand new Yuasa battery was dead- cold killed it I guess as bike is outside.

Jumped it off car with car off and bike ign on but as soon as I detached cables bike went dead.

Tried a few more times then realized my mistake. Shut key off on bike, let it charge 5 min like that (instead of in on position on bike) then started it. Removed cables while holding it at 3500 rpm.

RPMs were jumping up to 4200 then down to 3200 repeatedly. Took bike for a 5 min spin. Same problem.

Bike wouldn't restart. Checked voltage, 6.5 volts.

Battery is now on a trickle charger.

Could it be:
Battery too weak causing fluctuations in RPM?
Gas has water in it (first month it sat with a half tank before I added stabil gas treatment but never topped up tank)?
Too much stabil (pretty sure I put in prescribed amount)?
An electrical issue?

Also: noticed some corrosion on negative battery terminal close to vent cover... Is this bad?


Is this cover even removeable?


Thanks for any advice!



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One more shot of that corrosion on the terminal


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Your battery is trying to take everything ot can from the charge system. At 10.6v or less the batt froze and may be damaged. Put it on a bulk charger until amperage drops to less than 10amps and then trickle charge it until the batt voltage comes up to 12.8
The let it sit off charge for an hour or two and measure bat volts. If they drop below 12.4 the batt is damaged and will hurt your bike.

That is a non service battery. Limit charge voltage to 14.4v max and current to 15a. Full charge is when it draws less than 0.5 amp.

Time to charge = (batt cap in Amphrs+10%)/amps provided
So a 40ah batt like our bike batt charge on a trickle cgarger providing 2amps will take 22hrs to charge. But may take longer due to sulfication that happens when the batt freezes.

Long and short. Yes your low batt it the reason. You can charge it, but the batt has been damaged.

Also your bike drains the batt if you dont run the bike or use a tender. The guages draw power all the time as well so does the ecu. We are only talking 3 or 4 hundred milliamps but 40ah is only 40000mah so it wont take long to draw that down.

 

Your battery is trying to take everything ot can from the charge system. At 10.6v or less the batt froze and may be damaged. Put it on a bulk charger until amperage drops to less than 10amps and then trickle charge it until the batt voltage comes up to 12.8
The let it sit off charge for an hour or two and measure bat volts. If they drop below 12.4 the batt is damaged and will hurt your bike.

That is a non service battery. Limit charge voltage to 14.4v max and current to 15a. Full charge is when it draws less than 0.5 amp.

Time to charge = (batt cap in Amphrs+10%)/amps provided
So a 40ah batt like our bike batt charge on a trickle cgarger providing 2amps will take 22hrs to charge. But may take longer due to sulfication that happens when the batt freezes.

Long and short. Yes your low batt it the reason. You can charge it, but the batt has been damaged.

Also your bike drains the batt if you dont run the bike or use a tender. The guages draw power all the time as well so does the ecu. We are only talking 3 or 4 hundred milliamps but 40ah is only 40000mah so it wont take long to draw that down.

 

It's been on a battery tender junior overnight. It puts out 12v 750mA. Still at 6.25 volts or so.

Well this sucks I just bought it and installed it before the winter. I didn't realize a battery could fully discharge and then become irreparably damaged in 2.5 months.

I appreciate the info zen biker, I am glad it's just the battery and I have an answer.


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Try using the car to force that battery 6.0v is only 1v per cell. Your tender does not even come close to the 80amps needed to start the chemical reaction.

The batt isnt at fault, you just didnt know the bike still used power despite being turned off. The damage comes from extended discharge (sulfates the battery) and since the acid is on the plates instead of in the water, the battery can freeze. It doesnt have to get really cold to freeze a discharged battery but when it happens it forces the plates to move and this causes the damage we can not fix.

Once your batt is holding around 12.2 to 12.6 your bike will not care. But I would not want to keep a batt that could have freeze damage and I know its sulfated so it just wont work the same and will take more current and tine to charge back up.

Your cheapest and safest course is to replace it. Save your r/r and possibly the stator.

 

I have another charger that puts out 6amps. Should I try that? For how long?

I'm really interested at the thought of getting this battery going again. A replacement Yuasa is 150!

At the same time of course I would not want to damage my stator or regulator/rectifier.

Any way to determine with relative confidence whether utilizing the battery is high risk?


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I just re-read your reply. How do I use my car battery to jump start the process at 80 amps?



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I threw the battery on the 6 amp charger for 15 min. It's up to 11.5 volts. So I put it back on the trickle charger.

Fingers crossed it hits 12.8 and given a couple hours break it sustains it. Then I think it's still viable for safe use.


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Advice from Jack Flemming at Roadstercycle.com (sells Shindengen R/Rs):

"REMEMBER WHEN YOU JUMP START A BIKE WITH A CAR," THE CAR CANNOT BE RUNNING" !!!
YOU CAN FRY YOUR R/R IN A HEARTBEAT IF IT IS!!!!!!!"

 

At one time that was true, but not anymore, since about 1990 r/r units have reverse current and over voltage protection. Older bikes had a very basic regulator that did not like the high surge current a car batt can put out. New ones just dont care.

As for your batt..... I still wouldnt rely on it. If its been frozen then its damaged. If its been drained below 1.8v per cell then there is sulfication on the plates and this causes the batter to take longer to charge and produces lower output current.

To figure out how long a Battery needs to charge and at what rate follow this:
Battery capacity in amp hours, cca is useless, times by 1.2 and devide by charger output in amps.
So your 40ah battery is: 40×1.2=48/6amp charger=8hrs to reach 80% charge. Then trickle charge for 4hrs at 0.75amp to reach a theoretical 99%.
You will never reach full capacity due to internal resistance in the battery. If you use a car to charge the battery it would take about 2hrs and would boil the battery dry. Only use a car battery to start the process on batteries with really low cell voltage.
The best chargers use a micro controller to monitor the battery and adjust the charge rate to maximize time and capacity. They also act as a tender so that when the battery self depletes it will bring the battery back up to full charge.

 

My battery charged up to 13.5v and stayed on tender for a day or two. I disconnected and after a couple of hours it dropped down to 13.2v where it has remained for a few days.

It seems fine but ZenBiker is telling me it is probably damaged internally post freeze.

Any way to know for sure? I'd hate to toss a $120 battery.


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The only way to tell is to measure the voltage drop on a loaded time test. Thest batteries are given a 20a load and when the voltage drops to 11.6 the timer is stopped. This time is then multiplied by 2. This is the 20ahr rating. Since these are 40ahr batteries it should last about 1hr no problem. But due to losses look at 45mins being realistic. Do not give it a 40a test load! That is too much too fast for too long and will cause damage. If your battery gets close to this time then the damage is minimal and should be fine.

Now find all of the reasons why the battery got drained so low. Your bike has a steady draw when turned off. Plus the battery's natural resistance that causes it to drain. Set your meter probes to the 10a position (the third hole with the positive probe) and on the positive side of the battery, place the meter in series with the battery and battery cable. It will look like this: battery positive-meter neg-meter-meter pos- positive battery wire.

It will show a slight draw, about 100mA. If you need me to I can get the exact current draw from my 6th gen with abs. Now disconnect the guages on the back (this will clear the clock and trip meters but the odo will be fine) note the drop. Next with guages disconnected unplug the ecu. Note the drop. If you still have current flowing disconnect the r/r and that should leave you with no current flowing. If you have a large standby draw, make sure your key is off. After disconnecting the above start with other circuits, if you have abs, disconnect its module and then the pump. If you have current still flowing then you have a short thats killing your battery. At any point the current flow drops to 0 then you have whats killing your battery. Keep in mind the starter circuits are not part of the standby current and can cause a dead battery. This is a very long process but it will tell you what killed your battery. Your battery tender needs to be twice the current of your standby draw, but dont exceed 3 times or youll over charge the battery.

So to recap: your battery should be tested, but should be fine for this season, just be nice to it.
You should take some time to figure what killed your battery. Also consider how long since you rode last? About 2 months in the cold and any battery will be dead, now add constant current from standby and it doesnt take long to drop a battery down to 6v.

 

Great info! Thank you! Yes I do believe it was simply the cold that killed the battery... And because it's so cold I'm not eager to be outside going through the electrics right now.

But I do have my battery inside and was wondering if there is a way to do a load test on the battery without a specific load tester?

I believe in another thread I saw something about using an automotive bulb but I can't seem to find it now.

Thanks again!


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You need a large load to do it properly, aim for 10amps. The load test tool you get is a toaster but it performs a loaded V-Drop test. This has been proven to be useless, yet people still claim it is good enough. That function is for loading an alternator on a car and will kill your r/r.

You can use automotive seal beams, use one at a time and measure the current going through each bulb to the o.o1 amp. So is it reads 4.762 amps on the meter its 4.76amps. Measure each bulb and then add the measurements together. This give the total draw (give or take) of the bulbs in parallel. This is a close approximate. The full equation uses the resistance (which changes as the filament gets hot) and figured based on ohms law. You have the measured amperage of each bulb so measure the voltage of the battery and use this V/A=R to find the bulb resistance while hot. then use this R value for each bulb in this (r1×r2)/(r1+r2)=Rt. Wheee r1 is bulb1 and r2 is bulb2. Using ohms law you can calc 12.6v/Rt=amps total. Once you know the total current draw, you can calc the time ratio for the test. If total current draw is 9amps and your battery is a 40a/hr battery then take 40 and divide by 9. You get 4.4444 so now we know that we can figure out the total time needed to test to 50% (must go this low for accuracy) ! 40a/hr batter can (in theory) provide 40a for 1hr or 20a for 2hrs or 10a for 4hrs. So it should give 9amps for 4.44hrs but that 100% and you only get 80% out of a battery. So we take 20% off the 4.44 and we get 3.56 hrs now 50% of that is 1.78hrs total test time to reach 50% discharge. Write down your start voltage. Subtract 11.6 then divide by 2 and add 11.6. You must follow this math step or you will get the wrong answer.
Now time how long it takes to go from float charge to this calculated voltage. It should be within 10% to say the battery is like new. You should expect less as that is normal. If the goal is 1hr 46mins (example only) expect 1.5hrs to 1hr 40mins to be expected.

Remember this only gives you the battery's ability not its total health. Only physical inspection and specific gravity testing can do that and only when done together. (Do not remove the plates unless you have had proper instruction from a qualified person in an proper setting (forum teaching does not teach this and must not be used) also a large supply of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda, not powder) should be available when charging and discharging sulfuric acid based batteries.) Warning, rapid discharging will make the battery hot, do not remove the cell caps when battery is warm to touch or hotter. Bulk charging causes hydrogen gas to be released. This is a clear odorless and highly explosive gas. Use a lead off wire on the negative post for safety. Never disconnect or connect to a charging battery at the battery posts.

If you need help, pm me and I can walk you through it over the phone.

 

I can test an automotive bulb as outlined (I think!) but will not be able to test the specific gravity as the battery is sealed. Now to dig up a bulb!


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