ABS or Non ABS?

I'm ready to pull the trigger on a new '07 VFR. I'm having trouble deciding between the ABS and Non ABS, always have thought why bother with ABS, kind of expensive. Other than cost of course, is there any reason not to go with the ABS? I have been on a lot of different Honda motorcycles W/ABS, but I've never had the opportunity to jump on the brakes hard enough for the ABS to engage. So, what's the skinny?

 

I don't need it or want it. Ask any proffesional rider & every single one will tell you that you don't need ABS.

KC-10 FE out...
lane: :usa2:

 

I've never ridden a bike with ABS, so I can't comment too knowledgeably.

If it was available on a bike I was buying I'd go for it though. I'm a reasonably skilled rider, but I'm human. I make mistakes. I'll take any advantage I can get to keep the shiny side up. In the real world, I can think of a lot more scenarios where they'd help than hurt. If I never need them, great. If they save me from a crash once, they're worth it.

When I originally got my '99 VFR I was planning to eventually de-link the brakes, but have found that they in no way interfere in my riding and give me an advantage in the real world, so I'm keeping them.

I feel like there's something of a pride factor in this decision (I don't need no stinking band-aids - I'm a great rider!)...

 

I am really really... really glad that I have ABS. It does add 11lbs to the bike though. I like the safety factor and there are many who have stated that it has saved their butts. The one thing I can't stand though is crappy ABS. You know, the ones that pulse every second and seem to do nothing other than just jerk around. The 6th gen ABS is amazingly smooth. It is great in the wet and great in the dry. It's almost transparent.

So... if ya want it get, if ya don't, don't. It's certainly not needed but a nice to have IMO.

 

If you can get ABS, I think you should go for it. While it isn't a requirement for safe riding by any means, it is a brilliant safety feature which should be at least offered for all street-ridden motorcycles. The ABS system on the VFR is awesome--keeps the bike stable in the event you get some lockup.

I also found that Geico (my insurance company) gave me a lower rate because of ABS.

People who just outright poo-poo on ABS probably should eschew helmets as well. Clearly they are such incredible riders that the helmet is also totally unnecessary.

 

Don't let anybodys macho b.s. talk you out of ABS.
They will wish they had it too when shitting thier pants braking to avoid something on a less than perfect road!
I can still threshold brake without engaging the ABS and the only time it ever kicks in on me is when purposefully trying to engage it (experimenting).
99.9% of the time you don't need it, but just knowing it's there gives peace of mind.

 

Get it if you can. You just never know, I wish mine had it.

 

I'm going to basically agree with KC10 on this one, because if you learn & train correctly, you shouldn't need it.

But with the exception of If a M/C didn't have the ABS/Brakes linked it would be a better platform.

I opted out of ABS with my 6th gen, but when I bought the Sprint I did get the Non-Linked ABS.

Why, because I've ridden both linked & "Normal" unlinked ABS systems (back in 2003 on BMW's as a invited tester) on a skid pad & the canyons where we purposely put ourselfs in a must need emergancy brake situations.

The unlinked systems out performed the linked 2 to 1, & was much more Motocycle-ish in the feed back, as well as I found myself braking better & in more control with Un-linked non-ABS system than the Linked ABS (& most of the other riders agreed :smile: , as 8 out of the 10 riders)

So my answer is if one up, or 2 up -
Linked brakes ABS - No !

Two up riding -
Unlinked ABS - Yes !

If I "never" had a passenger - With out a doubt NO !



So if I did so well with out ABS, why did I get ABS on my Sprint you ask ?

The one thing the Non-Linked ABS helped out in was two up riding, it was such a plus & benifit (way over the top emergancy braking & the skid pad) with the additional weight of the passenger, that 3 years latter when I was in the Market for another bike & the one I wanted (OK the one I wanted-Honda hadn't built yet) had the Non-linked ABS option & I wanted to two up sport-Tourer with my Daughter or Wife, so I purchased it.
If there was no un-linked ABS available, I wouldn't of felt any unsafer riding with out it.

The brake systems on the modern sportbikes / sport-tourers are so out standing & powerful, that it's said that most would stop a 2 ton car normally if put on one.

So if you can't brake correctly & in time with such a modern user friendly system- wet or dry conditions & need a product that "may" help your defficencies in your use of brakes, you may be better off getting more training to use them correctly in the 1st place than a product to make up the lack of :wink:.

 

If it's an option, deffo go for it.

When you're on dark/unlit roads, rainy, and you simply don't see the oil or manhole cover when you swerve to avoid a sudden obstacle, you'll be glad you had ABS. No matter how experienced a rider, there are some situations where the technology is better than you are... and it might just save your life.

Oh, and my 1st post. Great site!

 

I did not get ABS on my '07 for kind of a silly reason. I have two older bikes that I plan on keeping for quite some time, and they are not ABS. I could see myself getting used to the ABS, and reacting on one of the other bikes like it had it.

It's kind of like having two cars, and trying to remember where the headlight switch or windshield washers are, especially if you don't drive one for a few months. This might be just me, but I gotta work with what I have... :smile: :redface:

 

Thanks for the replies! Has any one had mechanical issues (read failures) with the ABS? I know we are talking Honda here, but anything can fail. I'm leaning toward the ABS, I wont be the only member of my family riding the bike, and the others (Wife and Son) don't have the experience I do.

Brad

 

Fair enough, but I still think the nay-sayers are thinking "track" and not "street" here. Think about broken pavement, blind hills, gravel, oil, coolant, potholes, rain, imbeciles on their cell phones, random debris, pieces of tire, etc. I certainly think about that all the time while on two wheels.

Even if you think you know how to brake correctly, a human simply can't match the speed and precision of an ABS computer and valve block. I'm sorry, it's just not happening. And to avoid oversimplification--this isn't just a matter of knowing how to squeeze the lever properly--this is a dynamic situation.

ABS's one goal is to keep those wheels turning, because if they stop turning, even for a moment as surface conditions change or whatever--you're fucked.

But then again, I always wear a lot of good quality safety gear when I ride... so maybe I'm just overly cautious.

I'm sure you're well aware of this--but for those who aren't: The VFR isn't available with non-linked brakes--hasn't been since the 5th gen. The 6th gen introduced a slightly less linked flavor, but they are still linked. Most riders can barely tell (if at all)--unless of course they are outright told and then decide to obsess over it rather than just ride.

 

Stuka's post pretty much lays it on the line.. You never know when your going to need it, you just don't.

For the minor extra cost Brad, I would get it. I have not heard of any ABS issues with the 6th gen as of yet.

Just do it man, go get it today.

 

hi.
I never had a bike equipped with ABS. Once I rided a BMW 1150 equipped with ABS. Braking is more safe. The only problem, at least on this bike, is that if the engine turns off...the brake is hard and you cannot have a braking resource ! Like with cars !
Has someone of you ever driven a Guzzi or Benelli (I mean a model of the 80's) : there is a system that allows you to activate together both front (left) and rear disk (with pression compensation) and the second (right) front disk activated separately. In 15 years and 200.000 kms with a Benelli 654 sport so equipped I never found me sit on my ass...
But the progress must go on...
Lamps to all VFR owners (ABS or not ABS).

 

Yeah that was a pretty bad idea on BMW's part. :unsure: They're not doing it way anymore. The VFR system doesn't work that way.

 

I look at it this way cars & bikes are not the same nor do they dynamically react the same way. On 4 wheels, ABS is extremely helpful simply due to the way cars react under heavy braking. Because of this, ABS is standard on all but the very cheapest Korean cars. It's not 100% but the overwhelming majority of cars from all the majors have ABS as standard. On the premium Brands, MB, BMW, Lexus, AUDI/VW etc it's a given that you get ABS for your money. In less than 10 years, it will probably be mandatory by law.

On bikes, only the premium non super sport models have ABS or even offer it. The race replicas, the very definition of high performance, don't even offer it & never will. The VFR is a Premium model that commands a premium price. It's not a "safety" feature on bikes, it's a nicety. If it was a "safety" feature, it would be mandated by law. Big Brother is always looking for a way to stick his nose into the business of the populace so ABS can't be that important or it would already be mandatory just like electronic stability control, tire pressure monitoring, locking steering column, etc are in cars.

The way ABS works is when the wheel locks up, it modulates the brake to allow the wheel to continue spinning. This is the pulsing that you feel, be it in a car or on a bike. Now, the LAST thing I want is my back wheel momentarily gaining & losing traction. In a straight line, it's not an issue but it would actually increase the stopping distance measurably. We're not talking a few inches here, more like several feet. In a curve, traction going on & off sounds like a perfect recipe for disaster. As far as the front wheel, in Bambi avoidance maneuvers, I have braked my VFR so hard I hurt the boys on the tank. Never locked up the front & I can't for one minute believe that ABS could stop the bike sooner since it will be applying & releasing the brakes.

If you want it, get it. I don't so I wont.

KC-10 FE out...
lane: :usa2:

 

ABS only engages AFTER you F-up and lock up the wheel....up until then,it's business as usual.The wheel WILL lock for an instant and you can release pressure slightly and re-apply with proper braking pressure just like any other bike.
I can brake hard enough to detatch my retinas,but I am not,nor do I pretend to be perfect.
If you are always perfect all the time...you will NEVER know ABS is even there,so it shouldn't bother you.
Guess what?...The road is not always perfect!
The ONE day you mess up it will save your ass!!!

 

Prototype Honda Electronic ABS Tested - MotorcycleUSA.com

From the article: "Honda CEO Takeo Fukui announced this May that the Japanese firm would make ABS standard on its entire motorcycle lineup displacing 250cc and above."

ABS does increase straight line stopping distance on perfect pavement, in controlled conditions by a few feet - there are numerous test results to prove that. That is the trade-off, but there's no such thing as controlled conditions outside magazine tests and racetracks.

I can't speak knowledgeably on the physics of ABS on a motorcycle vs a car, but in my opinion KC-10's concerns are unfounded (I'd be happy to defer to someone with the engineering knowledge or experience in real world comparison testing).

Locking a wheel in a turn would cause a low-side. Ouch. Locking and then rapidly unlocking a wheel in a turn would cause a really nasty highside. OUCH! There's no way a critically flawed system like that would get to market. My understanding is that ABS prevents lockups entirely, keeping the wheels rolling. Wheels rolling = not a highside or lowside (I'm ignoring total traction availabilty and assuming there's some way out of a situation).

My understanding is the highest braking force is achieved right on the edge of locking a wheel up (threshold braking). ABS modulates the brakes to avoid any lockup, so you lose control over that last 2%. In trade, you get easily measurable benefits in all less than ideal situations. I'll take that trade-off.

This debate on sporting motorcycles is more analogous to the current discussions about stability control on sports cars than ABS on cars. On the track or in very controlled conditions you may want to be able to turn it off. In the world, if you don't have your head up your ass, leave it on, because it can keep you from getting wrapped around a tree. The degree of intervention is certainly an interesting discussion, but there are numerous testaments in this thread that ABS on a 6th-gen VFR does not intercede before riders want it to. Sounds like a win-win to me.

Controlled conditions: no 'interference' is better.
The world: By the time you kick in those systems, you've already fucked up. Motorcycles are already unforgiving enough.

My 2 cents.

 

My next bike will have ABS. The main reason for ABS is often forgotten - the ability to continue to steer (maintain control) during an emergency maneuver. Yes, in certain conditions ABS will shorten stopping distances, but as many drivers found out (and insurance companies) it may lengthen stopping distances on dry roads (as already indicated by others). This premiss remains true for motorcycles. The ability to steer a motorcycle around an obstacle while you have a death grip on the brakes is fantastic! Unfortunately, most training does not emphasize this capability of ABS. For instance, the Air Force's 101 critical days of safety training, in the case of automobiles still teaches pulsing the breaks to stop and how to control for the rear of the car swinging out when they should be discussing "slam" down on the break and steer the car to avoid the danger.
You ask, "who is this guy advocating slamming on the breaks?" First a little background on me:
My profession in the Air Force is Behavioral Sciences in which I do Human Factors and Human Systems Integration research. My area of interest as a psychologist is cognition and decision making. Human performance is a daily concern for me. Especially in the case of cognitive work load. Mental workload increases rapidly in an emergency situation to the level of overload in moments. So in the case of an emergency stop, if you can slam the brakes on you have now freed up some mental resources to maintain situational awareness. Otherwise you have to dedicate some of your limited mental resources to modulating the brakes as well (driving and riding involve a lot of multi-tasking).
Human reaction time is on average 1.5 seconds long (for the sake of this discussion this will be a constant across age and training). Yes, 1.5 seconds to see something and send a signal down to your hand, for example. Now that is for a well rested individual who is focused on the task at hand. Most Americans are sleep deprived by Friday, so on their drive home afterwork they have a reaction time (major increase) equivalent to a legally drunk driver. Does every rider get 8 hours of sleep? Is your mind clear and completely focused on riding your bike? Are you in complete control of your body? Are you in complete control of the environment? The answer to all these questions is no. This is why we wear ATGATT, ride with lights on, have a bright colored helmet, and should consider a bike with ABS. To be human is to err. More often than not we overestimate our capabilities, that is what makes studying the human mind so interesting.

Tail winds

Q