1986 vf500f. Starter problems

Alright here it is, I have a 1986 Honda interceptor. Bought it 18 months ago, $300 with title (had been stolen, so wiring was a mess, wouldn't start but turn over). What the heck, my boys are 14 and 17, hadn't rebuilt a first gen interceptor in about 10 years (had to have no hobbies or things I liked to do) so I took it home. *Left hand controller on eBay for $18 including shipping. Should I mention bike came with Clymer's and Honda shop book so wiring had been traced to left hand controller. Anyway she started and ran around the block for a few times, good enough for me, time to tear down. *I tore her down into 387 parts ( will post pictures if someone can tell me the best way too) and started rebuilding, stripping and repairing, and repainting every part. *Every bolt changed to a2 912 stainless Allen, carbs rebuilt ( THANKS FOR THE PARTS BILLY C), full Lockhart fairing and all body work stripped and painted in fighting red, Shasta white and candy eluthian blue. Everything done. *Now I will get to the meat of the question. *I must admit I refrain from asking for help ( must be attributed to my hardheadeness) ((is that a word)) BUT, I'm ready to start. Charged battery, hooked up, turn the key and hit the button and *click at the solonoid no starter motor. *All running lights work, brake lights work, 12.63 volts on positive side of solonoid and click. *Started reading on internet. Similar topics here and vfr forum BUT, no solutions. Keep looking. From what I understand, if the solonoid is clicking ( ie. you hear the magnet drop) then all safety and electrical systems are operating,thus the starter should energize, or the engine is seized. *Can operate the clutch and get it into fifth gear and rotatethe back wheel feeling a compression kickback, so I know the engine is not seized. *Opened the side case ( gonna cost me a new gasket) and hit the button and no spin on the starter. *Would it be safe to assume the starter is bad. Gotta mention I took the right hand control switch apart also as advised on the inter web. *So I know controller is clean and with new dielectric grease in it. *Also replaced battery with new ( yes charged on the trickle charger for 6 hours) new solonoid, and checked impedance on clutch breaker. Any words of wisdom, would be greatly appreciated. *

 

Put meter on other terminal of relay, does it 12.63 volts when it clicks? Put meter on stud of starter, does it read 12.63 volts?
If other terminal doesn't read 12.63, bad relay (not connecting two terminals), if it does, and so does starter stud, then bad starter.
If it reads ok, and starter stud does not, then bad connection, corroded washers on relay and/or starter studs.

 

Thanks for the quick response. The solonoid reads 12.63 on battery connection side, but 0 on the starter motor side. Have another solonoid and have switched them out with the same result. I have tried the screwdriver across the posts trick and I get a nice fireworks show. Sparks! Is something hooked up wrong? On the top of the green band that wraps the solonoid it has a B and a M. I have my positive cable hooked to the B side, and the black starter motor cable hooked to the M side.

 

Sparks should be expected, starters draw a lot of current. Did starter turn or do anything? Inside relay is a thick shorting bar that goes across to studs on relay. If starter is seized, it will just get hot and fry copper wires inside. Getting sparks and starter didn't turn means copper wires inside are shorted or fried. No polarity the starter side of relay, just a switch. If you can get your hands on another starter, doesn't have to be same, try hooking them in series (use jumper cables), if yours does not spin and other spins, your is shorted, if both spin (slowly) then yours is OK.

Picture of relay: View attachment 25544

Schematic for my 800 show fuse in series with switch and ignition switch, not starter, which wired directly to battery.

View attachment 25545

Found something else that might be of interest to you:

http://www.daughertymotorsports.com/howto/Tankvalve/tankvalve.html

 

I’m having a very similar problem. Got the electrical controls “working”, all lights work (headlight doesn’t), and hitting start dims the dash lights and makes the solenoid click. I put on a brand new starter and it would only turn (the starter pinion) about 1/8th of a rotation and then go back to original placement.

I also don’t believe the engine to be seized because of the kick back in 5th gear, the original starter motor would spin when directly jumped from battery, but for some reason I bought a replacement because the positive stud would not tighten down enough.

now after holding the starter I got smoke from the starter motor, and now it won’t move at all. I took it apart and found all the contacts between bushings and body were very tight, not a lot of easy motion. Commutator had soot all over it. Cleaned it a little and put it back on. Now I don’t get any movement from the starter. The gear between starter motor and starter clutch seems to spin just fine. I’m trying to avoid popping the case open. The cover for the manual cranking bolt is stuck and don’t want to strip it.

for the finally and the mystery that I think is causing the problem: when I attach meter to the battery after charging all day, while key turned off, I get a reading of 12.93v. Once I turn the key, it starts dropping to 12.1 very quickly. It will drop below that if I leave on. I put the battery charger back on and I get a reading of 65% charged. It was ~100% less than a minute previous to this.

Did you ever find a fix for your issue? And is there a reason voltage would drop so low so fast? If it’s “leaking” voltage I should believe that there is a massive short somewhere right? I’ve tested continuity of the ground from battery to engine frame and it seems fine.

 

How old is this battery?
Have you load tested the batttery? If not, charge it overnight then take it to any autoparts store, and have it tested.

A bad battery can have proper voltage when charged, but will fall on it's face when a load is connected.

 

Def. sounds as if batt. is toast. Even Wal-Mart sells them.

 

That’s a good point. The battery is 4/5 months old. It’s a flooded acid battery from Walmart. I’ll go get it checked tomorrow.

today I lifted up the back wheel and put in gear to see how it turned over and it wouldn’t. Tire would move about 6 inches and stop. So it could rotate either direction about 6 inches before catching on something inside the clutch. I’m basing this on the location of the noise. I might have a more nefarious issue than the battery :/

 

Okay Tripp I'm unclear as to what you were doing.
With the rear tire off the ground were you turning it by hand?

If you want to check if the engine will spin you will need to use the weight of the bike to have enough force to turn the engine. Push it to an area where you can essentally attempt a "push-start". Select 2nd or 3rd gear. Then while pulling the clutch lever get the bike rolling, jump on the seat and let out the clutch.

It may be possible to do it by hand on the centerstand if you remove the spark plugs so that there is no compression in the cylinders to overcome. I've never tried that.

 

try removing the sparkplugs, then rotating the rear wheel to turn the engine over.

 

Sorry Rllwjoe and squirrel man,

yes I was jacking up the rear wheel, taking it out of neutral and into 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th gear and attempting to spin the wheel to move the motor. I was doing this after removing the spark plugs. I filled the spark plug holes with seafoam and mystery oil and have been letting that sit. Sometimes taking the liquid out and putting fresh in.

when I would spin the back wheel by hand I was able to rotate the wheel about 4-6 inches along before it would stop. I also put the bike down on the ground and rocked it back and forth to try and break free. Also to no avail. The sound from where it would stop seems like it comes from clutch housing. But I do not know enough about internals to say what exactly is stopping it.

3 of the spark plugs looked good. 1, the front left one, was rusted at the tip and looked bad. This leading me to believe the engine is seized. I have heard it turn over before a few months ago when I got it so I’m hoping it’s temporary.

My hopeful other theory is that the starter clutch is busted up and causing the whole shaft to jam up. The spring locks seem to fail a lot and the parts sites still have OEM parts for repairing. I will take that apart tomorrow and report back. So far the battery is good, fan is jumped to always run. Lights etc work. Cdi and coils have proper resistance and continuities so far.

I redid the clutch slave unit today and it functions worse than before so I’ll have to fix that too. Prior the plunger was gummy but responsive. Now it’s just stuck all the way depressed in. I think I inserted it back in with the seals facing the wrong way. The bike only has 22k miles on it and I can swear I head the engine turn over when I was wheeling it off my truck, and another time when I jumped the starter.

sorry for the paragraphs.
I’ve been a long time lurker and have gotten a lot of useful information from y’all’. I really appreciate the help and replies from y’all.

 

if you want to ride start looking for another bike.

 

Word. I love her but I need to blow this b*tch up.

 

Have you taken the cover off the engine sprocket?

Take the plug out of the primary cover and put a socket on and try turning that

 

Tripp mentioned in post 5 that "The cover for the manual cranking bolt is stuck and don’t want to strip it." I'm not a VF500 owner, so just wondering if that is the plug that you are suggesting be removed from the primary cover?

Rust on one of the spark plugs does give cause for concern. It is proof that moisture of some form has been present!

How does the motor oil look? Any "milky" sludge-like residue?

 

I have taken off the left side engine case where the rotor is. I tried to wiggle the bolt hiding the rotor on and it came out. I stopped there. Are you saying I should pull that bolt and then put the rotor puller bolt in and turn? Or is there something I can grip with a wrench behind the rotor? I was told that the bolt holding the rotor in should also turn the crankshaft on this bike but it popped loose (ccw).

the plug I was walking about in post 5 turned out to be the viewing window for the timing.

Thanks thumbs and rllwjoe


Yeah I’ve taken the cover off but did not take a plug off or turn anything. I did pop the starter clutch off to inspect. It looks pristine to me, as did all the internals there. The oil had a little sludge on the bottom. When I initially changed the oil it was dark but didn’t look too bad. It’s got a new filter and new oil in it now. I forgot to replace the gaskets but it’s not leaking yet.


Left side of crankcase case also looked good. The bolt over the rotor came out without me having to hold the rotor still. So I’ll try to turn the bolt on the primary side next.


Mostly I’ve been just rocking it back and forth in 5th gear after soaking the cylinders in deep creep and marvel. I’ll try the atf/acetone/diesel mix next. If that doesn’t work by next week I’ll be taking the engine out to rebuild.


I took a video of it getting jammed up so y’all can hear it and see if it’s something familiar. I’ll post it under this post.


This bike is from a police auction. It’s been painted and abused but the insides look good so far. 25k miles.

 

before u plan a rebuild, find out what parts u might need and where to get them. piston rings, for example. with a frozen engine that sat for years there would usually be an ring of corrosion in each cylinder where the rings sat, so the block would need reboring [good luck finding the guy or shop to do it], maybe oversize pistons and rings, timing chains, etc. not a cheap project even if u got the bike free.

even if it frees up, its gonna smoke alot and burn oil.