Handlebar Height...how much it really matters...

I have been looking at a lot of motorcycles lately. For grins the other day, I went to my local Honda dealer to see if they happened to have an '07 Viffer in RWD 25th anniv. edition. This particular dealer takes trades and has all kinds of bikes...lots of cruisers...Wings...V-rod or two...sports touring sleds...you name it....just about all brands except for some of the fine Italian stuff...no Beamers either. So I decided to sit on about 40 bikes or so. To me ergos are pretty much the most important thing. I have also been changing handlebars, seats and foot controls around lately on my current cruiser. Ergos make a BIG difference in riding comfort. The other important thing is...motorcycles from one to the next feel a whole lot different just sitting on them. So the point of this thread is just how different ergos are from one bike to the next. Anybody ever ridden a V-max? The thing feels like a minibike at 6'1". I sat on a couple of CBR's with low bars and not for my aging body to be sure. The Viffer's feel pretty friendly...but still felt some weight in my hands sitting on the bike statically which I presume is diminished a bit with speed as wind neutralizes some of the rider's weight falling forward.
I will share with you something that I have learned having owned a few motorcycles with sometimes many a different seat on each. Seat tilt matters A LOT when it comes to weight on a riders hands versus not. If a seat on a motorcycle...cruiser or sports bike is tilted forward...you will end up with more weight on your hands...even with handlebars the way they were...high or low. Aftermarket seat manufacturers understand this and when developing their seat profiles configure them to sometimes defy the seat pan shape dictated by the motorycle frame geometry.

I wanted to ask those out there that have felt more pressure in their hands on the VFR then they like that have raised their handlebars...do you feel it makes much of a difference in relieving hand pressure? Also, as a corollary...if and when you changed your seat, based upon the change in seat shape...front to back mostly...did you also feel a change in hand pressure? I am of the school that the shape of seat matters as much if not more then the height of the handlebars relative to where a rider sits on the seat. I learned this building racing bicycles really. One degree change in seat angle changes weight distribution tremendously even without changing drop bar position. Yes both handlebar height and seat tilt matter but was curious if those that have experimented...feel that raising the handlebars helped neutralize their weight distribution on their VFR?
Any thoughts are appreciated.
George

 

I went to helibar risers, yes it made a very big difference in the pressure on my hands. Some people are better at using their back and legs to hold themselves up - I'm 175 lbs/5'11'' and in good shape physically. I've seen pretty fat guys ride race replicas for hours, maybe I have bad posture or something but I can't ride a stock VFR comfortably.
I'd also say that sitting too straight is just as bad for me - my back will hurt on a cruiser or FJR style bike after an hour or so, I never get that pain with the VFR.
The most comfortable bike I've ridden was the '07 Sprint, those ergos were absolutely perfect over my 45 min test ride. The Sprint's bars look just like Helis, so I ordered them within a couple days to replace my Genmars. I like everything else better about my VFR including power delivery, but Triumph absolutely nailed the perfect ride ergonomically for me.

 

Thanks for your response. You touched on a key comparison...that of a cruiser to a sport bike albeit a ergo friendly one like a VFR. On a cruiser...like I presently own with foot forward controls, the back is pretty straight up and down. This puts the spine in dead compression without having one's feet underneath for support and added suspension. By contrast with a more back tilted toward the handlebar position a la VFR, the vertical force vector into your back is mitigated by the sine of angle so generally less back pain. This dynamic is reported by many that have owned different kinds of bikes. With ergos as you know however there is no free lunch...only lessers of evil...though sounds as though you are very close on the Sprint. With an aggressive sport bike position, one really takes it in the wrists and shoulders not to mention neck. If there is an optimum position though, I believe the VFR is close. You mention the Triumph Sprint ST which is a great bike btw which has won a comparison test or two against the venerable VFR. That bike feels just a bit cramped IMO if you are over 6' tall. I believe they tweaked the ergos on that bike to be a bit friendlier for '07 if not mistaken. BTW, I am considering a VFR and why I asked if changing the handlebars is transformative in terms of taking pressure off the hands. I just don't want to chase back pain from my current cruiser to wrist pain on another bike...lol. :wink:
Thanks again for your comments,
George

 

I know your dilemma.went thru it all myself..

so...I did try the higher bars.For "me" the few inchs of bar raise helped in town, I really didnt find any diff at highway speeds ...I got much better results from 5 mph more speed and lift. Now no doubt this all can be diff depending on riders own height and posture on the bike.Makes a big diff for a lot of guys.If I rode a lot in town I would put them back on as they made a difference there!

Funniest thing is I never rode a ss type bike till a few yrs ago..Used to look at them , sit on them/ and go "no way" But I started riding my kids gsxr a few yrs ago in the mtns for short rides and kinda liked it. Finally undestood the wind lift deal, which on a cruiser was just turbulence, became smooth and lift on his bike..Hmm..still too radicall..but after narrowing it to the sprint and the vfr, I bought one. Have been the best bikes i ever owned for the long rides. Yes I do feel the arm pressure until i get used to it, and it is very noticable riding in town( I dont, so dont care) , but overall nothing else ever hurts, so for me this has been the best type of posture on a bike I have ever had.

heres one for u....I used to laugh when i saw the guys on the ss bikes laying on the tanks, used to thing "wow" that must hurt! Well surprise, i now go for hrs that way, specially across the $%$^% prairie!!..and I find it totall comfort..weird!! never woulda guessed!!

In the end, I find the small arm pressure I notice at times is so much nicer than the back and arse pain I suffered on most other bikes. Hopefully it works that way for you!!

Will it work for u? will the risers and seat guarantee you will be comfy if it isnt? I bet they should help if so, but no guarantee...Good luck on that one!!!

Only u will know.you might hate it! I know how that works....I bought a vstrom last summer because the world was in love with them..I hated it! most uncomfortable thing I ever owned... Point being, Advice about bikes only helps so much..
.so a gamble it is..
let us know how it goes..

 

Thank you Nitro....a wonderful review. Quite right...you don't know till you go there. I mentioned I build and ride racing bicycles. They have ergo's that would kill many and yet I can ride my bicycle for 35 miles with no back pain and quite frankly little upper body pressure on wrists and shoulders. That said, racing bicycle set up is critical. 1 inch too much bar drop and different things like neck and uh hem...private parts can start to hurt. On a racing bicycle pedal force somewhat neutralizes weight falling forward of an aero riding position not unlike what the wind does to neutralize the weight falling forward on a sports bike. You want a further funny analog? Ride a racing bicycle along with a pokey girl friend on a huffy and your wrists will hurt. Getting into a hammer session with racers at 25 mph and no wrist pain...lol....pedal force takes pressure off torso. By contrast, I hop on my cruiser and take a 50 mile ride and I feel my back muscles. This is based upon the spine being put in pure compression from my back being held straight up with arms based upon the force of wind, acceleration and braking. On a sports bike (and racing bicycle) the arms and back are more like a pyramid shape with longer distance from handlebar to seat contact in profile and hence inherently stronger against the forces of riding. As mentioned in the earlier thread, with ergos there is generally no free lunch. Most of us have strengths and weaknesses in terms of our body strength. I think perhaps just the bit amount of wrist pressure I feel while sitting on a VFR at the dealer which as you say may be lessened with speed may be a better alternative to what my back experiences by riding a cruiser. At the end of the day, the only way I suppose will be to take the plunge and buy a VFR and find out. :smile:
Thanks again for sharing your experience.
George

 

Changing posture helped (bend elbows) but right arm would tended to cramp (I cover the brake). Getting the simple 'crampbuster' really helped with the cramping, there's no more grip pressure needed to sustain the throttle.

Raising the bar maybe a solution, but a $10 piece of plastic sure helped me.

Safe Riding,
Pat

 

Hey! I like that piece of plastic myself..I keep one under the seat for the long rides!

 

If you feel any weight on your hands, even while not moving, you're doing it wrong. You shouldn't be placing any weight on your hands. Clamp the tank with your knees and use the big muscles of your back and thighs to hold yourself up. I've been doing this for years, and have never had any sort of sore wrists.

Weight on your hands = unintended steering input too.

 

as they say, to each their own,
I do know that works for some, but I couldnt last a hour doing that.Tensioning up the back and thighs all the time I ride I would pass out !

But definitely another trick for guys to try!

 

Try it sometime. Once you're rolling, it takes almost no effort.

 

I hear what you are saying but basically you have chased stress from your wrists into your back...lol. Also...evaluating the stress now created in your back...where does it come from? It comes from your legs and pelvis. On a bike with rearward foot controls like a VFR you have no leverage to hold your back up with your pelvis and legs. Why? Because the seat is tilted forward which promotes having your torso fall into the tank and your legs in effect are behind you. By contrast on a cruiser with forward controls, your feet keep your weight from falling forward...better mechanical advantage to keep your back from falling forward...and the seats on most cruisers are more level to the ground versus slanting down in front like sport bikes. The downside for a cruiser is keeping the back from falling "rearward" due to wind resistance and acceleration which transmits stress to the arms...pulling versus pushing on the wrists. No free lunch. I believe most feel that the VFR...particularly at speed may have the most forgiving ergos because the slight amount of wrist pressure felt while sitting on the bike statistically gets negated by wind pushing the torso rearward at speed.
George

 

hahaaa!! I have tried it..It dont work for me ! luckily i dont have to .When putting i just slide up tight to the tank and i can sit upright anyway, so no probs..rest of the time the wind lift is all i need. I just couldnt hold my legs and back in tension for 12 hrs ever. But like I said, its worth a try for anyone to see how it works for them.

 

You may hear me, but you are not understanding. Clearly you don't get it. Forget I mentioned everything. I'm sure your wrists are so much better at supporting your weight than your back and legs are that you should probably just learn to walk around on your hands.

 

Thanks for the laugh jacka$$.
:biggrin:
George

 

I know you're asking from a comfort perspective but I have a different angle on the situation.

On my 89 Hawk, the forks were too high/trees too low. This caused an un-wanted upper body forward tilt when I ride. After having the front end put pack to specs, all is well and more comfortable I might add.

On both bikes, I replaced the stock seat with a Sargent. The VFR is a complete aftermarket seat. The Hawk is a OEM recover. Both seats significantly modify the seating position & both are that much more comfortable.

KC-10 FE out...
lane:

 

When you raise the height of your trees, it makes sense this would make a big difference because of change in handlebar height relative to seat height. You touch on another important thing and that is seat shape. The thing I am always struck by is how ergos are dramatically changed by simply changing a seat. The thickness and tilt of a seat makes a big difference in riding position on the bike like you say. The other thing is each of us fit differently on the same motorcycle which is designed to fit a wide range of riders. I am tallish for example and that means a slightly taller torso and it stands to reason that I would have a bit more pressure on the handlebars because the angle of attack of my arms is more descending to the bars. The Sargent seat and Heli bars seem to be the most popular upgrade for these bikes.
Thanks for sharing your perspective.
George
P.S. Have included a pic of a VFR with rider position which puts into focus how riding position can be affected by small changes and rider stature.

 

Similar Problems with hand cramps

Hi I have recently returned to motorcycling after 25 years and have discovered similar issues with ride comfort on my VFR. I am just over 6 foot so the VFR feels a little small.
Initially I put this down to advancing years (having spent most of my life in front of a PC), and hanging on too tight (death grip).
I get pain in my hands after 5-10 minutes riding and my thumbs go numb soon after.
I believe there are a number of contributing factors and I'm trying various solutions. My first attempt was to change gloves. I found that if they are too tight across the palm they can cause cramps very quickly.
I have experimented with gripping the tank with my legs and taking the weight off my hands using my back and stomach muscles. This doesn't seem to help much and I finding it tiring but I will persevere on this because I think it is an important factor in controlling the bike properly though the emphasis should balanced/relaxed control rather than the death grip I have been prone too.
I have heard that there is a nerve that runs through the front of the shoulder that when compressed can cause numbness in the fingers, this can be caused by slouching (at a PC terminal) so this could be a contributing factor.
I haven't considered the seat angle, I find I slide around too much especially when I have waterproof over trousers on.
I am reluctant to fork out for a new seat and handlebar risers until I have diagnosed the problem properly (Both of which are a little difficult to get hold of in New Zealand).
I'm not sure what my next step is, possibly taping some foam to the seat to see if that makes a difference.
Cheers Mark

 

I think your right on with the death grip. once i got used to bike and relaxed no longer have hand cramps or numbnes on long rides. should be able to relax throttle gripe enough to still controll throttle with fingers stecheched out
with sargent seat forces you forward slightly that has made a difference as well and lot easier on my arse..........

 

I used to think the same then took a riding course. Learned to relax better, bend the arms, keep the hands loose and use the body core muscles more and voila 600k day with no wrist or back pain. Sure was a big surprise. Mind you I have Helibars and a Throttlerocker which both helped a lot. Before I changed my technique I struggled to ride for an hour without significant pain even with the mods.