I'm Really Disappointed At Honda.

Discussion in 'General VFR Discussions' started by OCLandspeeder, Nov 12, 2018.

  1. Viffer J

    Viffer J New Member

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    Indeed, I have MBS, they wanted the same annual $ to insure the ninja 1000 as they wanted to insure all 3 of my other bikes, 14 VFR, 01 GSXR750, & 15 KTM 500EXC. :(
     
  2. HotPursuit

    HotPursuit New Member

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    I wouldn't say *never* buy. I understand the struggle all the manufacturers have of trying to sell a product that people buy at the most frequency every 2-3 years every year, and there are many, like myself who keep a bike much longer than that. The last VFR800 that came out, although pretty, wasn't really a "new" model.

    Then the used bike market seems to royally undercutting the new market.

    Couldn't afford wasn't an accurate statement. What I should've said was "What'd I'd be willing to pay for. "

    I like a lot of the innovation and technology going into the new bikes, and I get that R&D costs need to be off set, but a new bike's really gotta check all the boxes for me if a manufacturer wants me to ignore the used market. There's plenty of "good enough's" floating around at a third of price.

    Honda employs professional market researchers (or maybe mostly algorithms) to figure out whay people want. I know no one wants the CB1000R because there was only 1 in the demo fleet at Vegas. The Goldwings and Africa Twins must be selling because they comprised the majority of the demo fleet, and people were about to break into blows over getting in on a test ride with them.

    So I suppose you're right, it wouldn't be a hit, but it would be a bike that I would appreciate, and if competitively priced, I'd give a serious consideration towards trading in my current stable for.

    *If Honda's marketing team reads this, I'm on a modest salary, so don't run your business into the ground trying to squeeze dollars out of me. Keep pleasing the affluent, they're the real rock stars.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
     
  3. bk94si

    bk94si Member

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    The CB1000R would probably sell in Europe so it doesn't cost Honda much to ship a few over here.
     
  4. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    That's right, some people are, unfortunately, only able to be Hyosung riders, and some can afford to buy or build and ride the best they can. It might not be fair, but I'm not making those rules. I didn't realize we were gonna end up going down a road that could potentially lead to a socialism conversation. Please tell me it won't. I don't like mixing my guilty pleasure places with politics.
     
  5. OCLandspeeder

    OCLandspeeder New Member

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    The Honda CB1000R is a beautiful bike. Unfortunately, I doubt if it will sell well either. They're asking $13k for it and its only ace up the sleeve are its looks. If Ducati can't sell their Monster 1200's for $15k, Honda sure as hell won't sell CB1000R's for $13k!

    I saw a 2017 Aprilia Tuono 1100 V4, new, being discounted by the dealership for $12k. Despite this bike being a constant comparison winner, it does NOT sell well for Aprilia either. They're practically trying to give away their Shiver 900's. Great bike. Italian styling. But once again, overpriced European heap with lackluster performance. Ducati can't sell their Monsters of all sizes either. Local Ducati dealership are discounting their smaller 2018 Monster models in an effort to rid their showrooms of them. Asking too much for too little performance. Good looks just isn't enough.

    What I'm seeing now is Japan, Inc., are all running towards the $10k mark or under. Whomever is able to offer the most looks, the most up to date styling and technology, the most performance, all for under $9k, is the one that will move fastest in the showroom. Examples are the Kawasaki Z900. Under $9k with very near literbike performance. I know you guys are old-school when it comes to styling but today's younger buyers love avante guard looks and bragging rights of a big-bore.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. OCLandspeeder

    OCLandspeeder New Member

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    I got a quote for my insurance for a Ninja 1000: $450 a year. I do have a multi-bike policy and a good record. Plus I'm 51 years old.
     
  7. OCLandspeeder

    OCLandspeeder New Member

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    No they won't sell. Because Honda will ask $14k for it and people who can afford $14k will gravitate towards the Africa Twin. The ADV market is not saturated yet if you can believe that.

    This is Honda's biggest problem. They want near Ducati prices for their bikes. Yes. They're fit and finish is second to none. But they're constantly overweight and underpowered when compared to their competition. They know it.
     
  8. John carnahan

    John carnahan New Member

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    With due respect, don't you guys realize the party is over. Nobody is selling bikes like 10-15 years ago and NEVER will again. Romney Cycle once was the biggest Suzuki dealer in the country with bike clubs from DC coming to fetch trailer loads of GSXR's every year, dozens at a time. Kevin had to buy a bigger showroom......which is now half empty. Oh well. The bike makers are arguing over crumbs......

    Look at sales figures.

    Problem is us boomers are dying off and the younger set would rather play video games etc. etc. The same issues with general aviation.

    Get over it.

    Again with due respect,

    Jack
     
  9. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    There are a couple things that I find interesting on that Z900, the frame is an interesting combination of trellis and cast aluminum, I have to wonder how much of that was flex tuning the chassis or if it was just trying to keep the cost down, as opposed to a cast and stamped aluminum full perimeter frame . I also like that they didn't bolt on another half a frame to hold the footpegs, so if you did want to change them to suit your personal tastes, it wouldn't be difficult, nor very expensive. I just struggle personally with the headlight area and lack of effective element protection on these naked machines, they look like somebody in the design department forgot about it until the design got approved for pre-production and then they slapped some shit on there to meet regulations.

    The funny thing about the age thing and what is considered avante guard. I have attended a couple handfulls of metric bike nights here, and there are very few young people at all, and most of the ones I do see, are building rat, cafe, or bobber bikes out of old CB era platforms or something similar, or they are on 10+ year old sportbikes that they are resto modding. I have asked quite a few of them what made them choose the specific direction for their ride, and more often than not, it's price, originality, personality, or reusing something instead of throwing it in a landfill. So I'm pretty sure you could make a machine that looks like an old bag of assholes, just as long it was perceived to be inexpensive, socially conscious, and manufactured in a sustainable manner, and it would be marketable to the seemingly few younger riders. They don't give a fuck who Kenny Roberts, Freddie Spencer, Wayne Rainey, Eddie Lawson, Scwhantz, or Nicky Hayden are, or were. They aren't into racing. Not like when I was growing up and all the cool kids wanted the latest repli-racers and gear that their heroes were riding and wearing and the manufacturers were more than happy to provide those machines and that gear and cash in on this. It's just not the case anymore and the manufacturers missed the train and got left at the station.

    I live in a college town, I hang out in places where the people are usually substantially younger than I am, most of the time. I have quite a few barstool, tattoo parlor, or music venue conversations with younger folks about a wide range of subjects, but they mostly want to get my "older dude" opinion on how I perceive my generation's successes and failures. I enjoy hearing their "younger" opinions about the things they believe are adversely affecting the world on all levels; i.e., socially, politically, culturally, and environmentally, both on a local and global scale. It is usually a healthy debate.

    Younger folks are not into owning a house, having kids, getting married, or buying cars or motorcycles as a form of entertainment or status, however, they are all in on traveling to other places and seeing how other people live, art, music, ride or bicycle sharing, effective mass transit, electrically powered vehicles, being conscious of the environment and sustainability, and basically not doing anything the way their parents generation has done it. And that's not a slam at all, they have just decided that what has come previously, was a cultural, environmental, and societal failure and they want to change that, they feel it's their turn. I personally can't argue that fact. They are certainly a fuck of a lot brighter and globally aware than some older folks are, or make them out to be.

    This is what motorcycle manufacturers are up against in the US market and I don't care if you make the thing look like bumblebee, optimus prime, or some craft out of Star Wars, they just aren't buying into the entire concept like my generation did. That is what I believe to be the biggest problem for motorcycle design going forward. You have a bunch of older riders that want to sit straight up and down and pretend they are adventurous again, and they want to drag the kitchen sink along for the ride, or, you have older riders who want something that performs like the production racers that they grew up on, trapped somewhere in the middle is the guy that wants a cross between the two, but can't afford to pay the premium. It's a no win situation.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2018
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  10. Gator

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    OCL was that 2017 Tuono a new bike for 12K? If so that is one hell of a deal.
     
  11. OCLandspeeder

    OCLandspeeder New Member

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    Yes 2017. It's in a San Diego, CA dealer.

    There are also local dealers to me selling several 2018 Ducati SS's for $10,999 for the standard model. I don't think that's a screaming deal because I feel this bike is outclassed. Needs to drop another $1k at least.

    Other deals include the 2015 Honda VFR800's new. $9k for the standard model, and $10k for the deluxe. I still don't think that's a screaming deal. These bikes are orphans and need to drop down further in price. One would be lucky to sell a slightly used one for $7k. It's probably a $6k trade in with modest mileage at best. If I went for this deal I would be bored pretty quickly. No thanks. They even had a 2018 CB1000r (the old one) for $9k. Still way overpriced for a unicorn. I'm quite sure they would let these bikes OTD at these advertised prices though if a customer came in ready to sign simply because these bikes will just end up getting crushed & recycled by Honda.

    It's not going to sway my decision as I'm ready to buy just waiting a little longer, like end of December when dealers are definitely desperate. I think they are already. It just amazes me how quickly these bikes depreciate. Something like $2k/year for used bikes and $1k/year for new, unsold bikes.
     
  12. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    You already have the two wildcards you need, patience and financing/cash. Best of luck with whatever you decide. You do have access to one of the best Aprilia mechanics in the country, in Amauri Nunez, should you decide to go Tuono.
     
  13. OCLandspeeder

    OCLandspeeder New Member

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    Yup. At this point I don't really want to trade in my VFR800 because it's worth more to me than a trade. I feel like I'm losing money on it by trading it in even though it's fully depreciated from a financial standpoint. It's still running really well at 60k miles too, which makes it even harder to justify parting with it. Finally, I already sold my CBR600RR so I've got "room to spare" so to speak.

    I haven't personally seen the Tuono that was on ad this past weekend. Admittedly, if I had gone to see it, I may have likely jumped the gun and bought it because I have a weak mind. But the truth is, I don't need that much SPORT on my bike. I just rode my VFR800 with a few guys this weekend. One of them had an OLD, clapped out 2004 GSXR600, while the other had a Ducati 1299 (full Ohlins), another guy had a Daytona 675R (full Ohlins). Guess who was fastest? Yeah it was the clapped out GSXR600. LOL! That being said the Gixxer rider was just a fearless, track whore. He was riding FAST, too fast for me and I thought I was fast! I just choose not to do the things he did because I don't want to lose my license, get hurt, or hurt someone else. A brand new Tuono 1100 with all the bells and whistles wasn't going to help me keep up with him! He didn't have to wait very long at the route junctions for me on my VFR800 and that was good enough for me.

    At my age of 51, being comfortable while riding at a fast (but not balls out crazy) pace, being healthy enough to enjoy such a ride, and knowing I can maintain that pace all day, is plenty good for my happiness. Ok yeah I'd like the occasional balls out blast at very high speed and the feeling of being catapulted from corner to corner. Hence I want more power than my VFR800. Yeah I'd like to have a better, instrument cluster with a gear indicator, and a quick shifter would be nice. I'd like to see LED headlights as standard. So I'm not really demanding Tuono-level performance, just VFR800-like performance plus another 25 rwhp! I'm over the Ricky-Racer wannabe routine.
     
  14. OCLandspeeder

    OCLandspeeder New Member

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  15. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    Personally, I never saw the need for a gear indicator, but I know a lot of people like them. I would never even use it, I guess that came from riding so many years and miles on offroad machines where such things just didn't exist and you wouldn't have the time to look at it anyway. Basically, if the engine is pulling like you expect it to, you're in the right gear. I rarely even look at the speedo unless I'm on the interstate, or riding around in town, you know, the places where there is a LEO presence, and normally it's just a quick sanity check. So I guess the whole dash thing is lost on me too. If it accurately indicates engine coolant and/or oil temp, fuel level, and charging voltage, and is easy to read quickly with a glance, those are the only things I am ever concerned about. I am more interested in being able to manually operate the fan and being able to tuck behind a screen that flows air well over the top of my helmet, and decently keeps the wind off my body, while not exhausting a bunch of heat into the rider envelope.

    Engine power characteristics are more important to me than what the dash looks like. People who didn't ride a lot of 2T machines aren't used to "feeling" rpm, it just gets hardwired into your brain, it's hard to explain. After 500 miles or so, ya just seem to know where you are, within about 500 rpm. I pay attention to the tach during that first 250-500 miles to "learn" the revs by feel in each gear, then after that, don't really look at it much, except at startup, to watch the needle movement to check the smoothness of the idle. That should give you a good idea of what my philosophy is towards engine "break in".
     
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  16. XRedJar

    XRedJar New Member

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    I never thought I'd like a gear indicator, but on the 8th gen that has one, it gets a glance more than I would have expected. It's a nice to have for those times when you have a mild brain fart.
     
  17. Gator

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    I'd buy that 17 in a heart beat. There were significant improvements in the 17 and on. Not that the 16 wasnt a great bike. That is a good deal too.
     
  18. OCLandspeeder

    OCLandspeeder New Member

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    It's tempting. I won't lie.

    The biggest hurtle for me is the 12k major service. It is quite involved. More than VTEC. This is just to inspect. If the intake valves need adjustment, owners are saying it may be better to drop the motor. It makes my Buell 1125R major service seem like a piece of cake.
     
  19. OCLandspeeder

    OCLandspeeder New Member

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    My Buell 1125R had a gear indicator. I never really thought I cared until I got one. Then I start looking for one on my other bikes. The last few test rides I've taken all had gear indicators. It's not necessary but it's a nice feature to have. My current DR650 has an LED headlight upgrade (the whole light is LED not just the bulb, which makes a difference). I really also like the bright white illumination at night. Not necessary either but it sure is nice to have at night. Quick shifters are also not necessary but it sure is nice to have. The bike feels faster especially in urban environments as you pull away from an intersection and there is very little delay as you shift up. Unfortunately, quick shifters are still not mainstream items and are mostly for high end bikes. A bi-directional QS is even more rare.
     
  20. Diving Pete

    Diving Pete Member

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    That's amost exactly the same as me - except dont really care about manually turning on the fan - who go's that slow - lol.

    Years ago (80's) I had a Kawasaki that the speedo would never work once you removed the front wheel !! Got kinda used to not caring about it since then...
     
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