Suspension Setup

Discussion in 'Mechanics Garage' started by michael, Dec 22, 2005.

  1. michael

    michael Administrator Staff Member

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    What you should be setting first is rider sag. This is how much the Suspension travels when you and your gear clime aboard the bike. On the VFR800 the rear sag should be about 32 mm and the same for the front as well. This is about 1 1/4 inches. You will need two people to do this.

    Doing the front end is easy. Just install a zip tie on the fork tube. Push it down to the fork seal and then very carefully get on the bike with all of your gear that you normally ride with. Have the other person balance the bike holding the handle bars while you get in to your normal riding position. It's very important that you get on the bike gently so as not to overly compress forks. You only want them to sag from your body weight. Then put the bike on the side stand and pull the front tire off of the ground using the side stand and rear tire as leverage. Now have some one now measure the zip tie down to the fork seal while you have the front tire off of the ground. This is your rider sag. Like I said it should be around about 32 mm. You are now done with the front forks. There are no more adjustment other than rider sag.

    Doing the rear is easy too. Just take a piece of tape and stick it on the side of the rear cowling above the rear centered axle nut. Now hold the bike up vertically not sitting on it yet and have a friend measure the distance between the axle nut and the piece of tape. To make it easier. Have the friend mark the tape with a pen on a even number while he take the first measurement. Now gently get on the bike. This is nice if you have three people to help, one to hold the bike up while you are sitting on it and the other to take the measurement. But all of the time that I have done it I have only had one person to help. In this case you can lightly balance the bike with you toes while you friend takes the second measurement. Now the difference between the two is your rider sag.

    You can now set Rebound dampening. This is the tire going away from you. What you are looking for here is that when you push down on the seat that the seat return not two fast but not two slow ether. When it is two fast it will over shoot and not settle right away. If its two slow it may not return two its normal sag position. Once you get it close. What I like to do is take the bike out for a ride and take it up to say 35 or even 45 mph and stand on the pegs and balance it a little to see how it feels. You can get a good feel for how well the dampening is working. If you don't have a enough you may feel it balance back and forth a little bit. And if you have to much you will feel it come back two slow. And that's it for the stock rear shock. Any other fine tuning will have to be done on the track or your favorite twisty.

    Hope this help you. Good luck.

    Robert Kehl VFR800
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2005
  2. chris.hayes007

    chris.hayes007 New Member

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    Sent from my SM-G357FZ using Tapatalk
     
  3. JamieDaugherty

    JamieDaugherty New Member

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    Ok, let me clarify a few points:

    Sag -
    You can get the correct sag with any spring rate (theoretically). However, the level of performance will vary considerably. The stock VFR springs are very low rate but you can get the correct sag. That does not mean it will handle well! Sag is really only ride height and has nothing to do with how the suspension will perform. Without having the correct spring rates installed you really are only changing the level of "poor". The spring rate calculation is pretty complex so best to work with a company that designs their own parts to get a recommendation of what is best for you. Feel free to make them prove why their spring rate is the correct one for you.

    Damping -
    This is something I have yet to see described accurately in forum posts like this, YouTube videos, etc. The push-down method described above just simply doesn't work. It might have some validity if you plan to ghost ride your bike, in which case maybe you would have something decent until it crashed. It's honestly that ridiculous! The only way to adjust your damping is to understand what the bike is doing (or not doing) while you are riding. Damping is, by its nature, a dynamic control so you have to be moving with the rider on board to make any determinations about its performance. The rider should focus on the motorcycle and their own technique and adjust as needed. Knowing what you bike is doing underneath you will pay dividends in the long run too.

    A final note: nothing you can do with the stock suspension will net you a setup with good handling, safe control, comfort, etc. There are just too many compromises with the OEM parts. With the proper spring rates, and most importantly the proper valving/damping, you will have a motorcycle that turns better and is also more comfortable to ride. Not to mention more enjoyable!
     
  4. Glenngt750

    Glenngt750 New Member

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    I disagree with your opinion. The spring rate on a VFR is correct for no one? I'm not saying that Ohlins is stealing Honda's suspension specs. or anything, but I do believe that the VFR800 does have safe and comfortable handling for a wide range of riders. Can it be made safer and better handling? Yes. But is it dangerous in stock form? No. If so, why aren't I hearing of more deaths and crashes, especially on older bikes? Though I do agree that aftermarket susp. is a wonderful addition to any bike it is not an item that has to be added to "net you a setup with good handling, safe control, comfort, etc." Compared to the older style damping rod forks, the newer forks on a VFR are actually a nice product. Is it necessary to do "sag" adjustments? Of course.
     
  5. JamieDaugherty

    JamieDaugherty New Member

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    Ideal rider weights for OEM springs:

    VFR800 - 55lb front, 12lb rear
    VFR750 - 20lb front, 90lb rear


    Setting sag is a good thing to do, plus it's free. However the displacement you get while moving will be what determines if you have the correct rate or not. Feel free to contact me if you would like more details on these concepts. One of things I've been trying to accomplish lately is to break through the fog of misunderstanding of how suspension systems are designed. I'm happy to help in any way I can.
     
  6. zombie

    zombie New Member

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    I am about 260lbs before putting on the gear. With my new tires replaced I'm noticing that the ride is harsher than it was with my other tires. Handling is improved but harsher. My 2002 has the stock setup with no obvious issues other than one fork is starting to leak. Planning on replacing both seals and fluid this coming winter. Keeping things inexpensive, is there anything that I can do to improve the handling?
    There are many threads on this site that suggest sending parts off to Jamie to do his magic but in all honesty that's not happening with this bike. Nothing against Jamie but there just isn't enough spare cash in the non existent bike budget. Regular maintenance happens but upgrades (that cost money) not so much. I can swing an extra $50 here and $100 there once in a while but that's as good as it gets.
    This bike is the best handling bike I've ever owned but I'm constantly reading ( mainly on this site) that it could be improved, Is this something I should be concerned with or just ride and enjoy what I have? I would assume that losing 70 to 80 lbs would be the cheapest improvement that I could do and that is in the plans, has been for years now...
     
  7. JamieDaugherty

    JamieDaugherty New Member

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    Unfortunately there isn't anything you can do in that price range. The VFR is a great bike but its handling is very poor. You probably think it is ok now, but riding one with upgraded parts is like a completely different bike. On rare occasions I get to ride a stock VFR and it reminds me how bad they are!

    I totally understand that upgrades are not something everyone can do. If there is anything I can help with please shoot me an email.
     
  8. zombie

    zombie New Member

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    Thanks for the input Jamie. I get what you are saying and for now I am still happy with the bike, I'm sure that I am not pushing it to that point yet anyway.
    Like I said, its still the best bike I've ever owned and I'm not at the point that I feel the need to do something to it to improve the handling. More a case of finding out that when I do the seals that there is an upgraded spring set available for $50 that I could do at the same time for example. Nothing worse than finding out after its all done and back together that there was something you could have done different.

    There are wants and there are needs, and I needs more cash for my wants.
     
  9. OOTV

    OOTV Insider

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    Like with most things, you don't know what you're missing until you've tried something else that is much better. This was definitely the case for me. I never really had any issues per se with '09 VFR, then after having Jamie upgrade the shock and provide the "innards" for the forks, boy did it transform the bike!

    One of the first things I did when I got my '01 was have it also updated by Jamie and after that, I had him do the Ducati as well. The latter was more for refreshing and building it to my weight as the stock Showa suspension of the Duc had built in adjusters for preload, compression and rebound settings, unlike the two VFRs. Having it "tuned" to my weight and riding type (sport riding) made it an even better ride. I think I just gave it another 20 years of riding enjoyment! :wink:

    All I'll add here is unless you ride a bike with better legs, you'll probably feel fine with what you got, ride a model like yours with a better setup and you'll probably start saving up for the improvement!
     
  10. Gator

    Gator Insider

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    Jamie I have my old shock from my 2006 CBR 1000 laying around somewhere. It does not have many miles on it, maybe 4k. I switched to an Ohlins shock and forks with suberbike valves long ago. Can that shock be used on my 09 VFR?
     
  11. Glenngt750

    Glenngt750 New Member

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    Without stepping on toes, or harming someones business, I would caution people on blindly accepting someone elses opinion. I have ridden motorcycles for over 35 years and raced a few years on various motorcycles. I have learned to feel what my suspension is doing and try to isolate issues by repeating the same circumstance to solve an issue. I have tried various rates of springs, shocks, damping combinations, etc. I started out on a 1977 Kawasaki KZ400. Now that bike never handled all that well.
    Try and find out what you really need. There are a lot of inexpensive things that can be done to improve your bikes handling. Try thicker oil in the forks, put a longer preload spacer in the tubes. Cut a coil or two off to increase spring rate. Buy a heavier spring. Actually change the oil in your forks, and refill to spec. Put a cable tie around your fork tube to see how much travel you are actually using, to determine if you really do need a heavier rate of spring. See if your OEM shock can be rebuilt. Ask Jamie, as he does rebuild stock shocks, correct? Try and determine what you actually wish to accomplish though. Why do you want to rebuild it? Because you were told you have a scary bike? Is it harsh after hitting a series of bumps? Or are you constantly being thrown from the saddle after hitting a bump? Try to see if YOU have an issue. Ask on this forum if anyone has put cartridge emulators on, and if they helped, if you have a bike without cartridge forks. Another thing may be seeing if your cartridge forks can be altered, to increase damping, if you are using too much travel and need heavier springs. On my favorite Vee Four, I've once again heard good things about Jamie D. putting an F2 shock on a VF750F, I believe. Don't settle for "nothing can be done"! I bet it can. Start with the cheap stuff, and work your way up from there. Even on your clap trap stocker, riding in a smoother manner will gain you time through the corners. Get a copy of "Twist of the Wrist" by Keith Code, he'll teach you how to ride in a controlled safe(r) manner, without changing anything ,except where you chose to spend your attention. I am way safer now by just watching when I brake, let off the brakes, and initiate my turn in point. If I get the timing correct, I can rocket into and through a corner. When I have my fork pogoing up & down, I mess up the corner! Maybe I'm just getting old and remember the really bad suspension from some of my old bikes? In comparison, a 2006 VFR800 is a pretty sweet ride.
     
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