New to the VF World - Having Starting Issues

Hi All! New to the forums so I'd like to say hello first!

Preamble: I'm a new street rider - I'm a foot dragging dirty dirt biker with minimal experience aside from some engine maintenance. I've always run kickstart bikes with little to no "extra" electronics in them.

I know there are plenty of "my bike won't start" posts but I figured I'd start a new one, sue me.

Issue: I purchased an '85 VF700F with about 38K miles. Previous owner rebuilt the engine, new starter, new brakes, etc. It was running great until this past weekend. Took a nice 40 mile ride on it in the blaring heat (about 90F-95F), parked it then came back about an hour later and went to start it. All I heard was the starter relay click. Tach fluctuated (in my experience usually a sign of low voltage). I took off the side panel and hooked up a multimeter:

12.4V with the bike off and lights off
10.5V to 11V with with ignition on and pressing the starter once (hearing the click)

I checked the ground, seemed ok at first but a closer look showed that the connection to the battery from the engine ground screw had some melted plastic. Essentially the wire on the battery side appeared to have been hit with either a lot of resistance or a lot of heat. I decided to check the continuity and I read out about 22 ohms - checked the positive lead for reference and got about the same.



I popped out the relay and decided to bench test it as there was no rust on the ground or terminals (while I waited I trickle charged the battery for about an hour; I know it really needs more). The bench test seemed to work - relay popped (I should have measured resistance but didn't...)

Anywho, I ordered myself a new battery (can't hurt, not sure how many seasons the bike was ridden then stored).

The prior owner informed me that he had replaced the starter and it was still "wearing in the brushes". I'm pretty familiar with brushed motors as I race RC cars and wind motors myself. It was such a sudden problem that I can't understand it and it leaves me with a whole lot of questions.

I'm waiting for the new relay to come (lord knows it's probably not that but what the hell); waiting for the new battery (dry cell). I'm hoping it'll kick over. I bump started it and ran for about 5 miles and then tried the starter, I heard it ALMOST crank the engine. I'm guessing low voltage or high resistance could be the root cause. I'd like to take a look at the starter if need be but for the life of me I can't decipher the old ratty MoM I picked up. Apparently I can access it from the front by removing the lower rad but another picture shows me having to remove the pipes (which I'd prefer not to do).

Another small issue is that if it IS a resistance issue with the negative ground, I'd like to replace to a higher gauge however the fin from the rear cylinder seems to be blocking the screw which allows me to remove the O clip on the cable. Any suggestions on how to pop this out?



For those of you that don't like reading:

1) Bike won't kick over with starter button - just get the solenoid click - (starter is less than a season old and prior owner said it was a little sticky but should wear in, problem came out of nowhere)
2) Very hot/melted ground on battery side
3) Where the hell is my starter motor?
4) How do I remove the ground cable since the damn screw is too long and hits the cylinder fin?
5) Anything suggestions? You guys seem great and knowledgeable.

It doesn't appear to be the clutch relay/kickstand stop/etc. I think the issue is somewhere between the battery and the starter motor

 

Battery seems to be dropping a bit low and you quite possibly have a charging problem which is a common VFR problem

 

Any time you have a hot/melted connector, you have resistance, which causes heat! Look like a faulty/corroded crimp on spade lug. Wiring on the bike is normally correct gauge, unless it has been replaced (This looks like original). Always the connectors/crimps that cause the problems. I have all the stock wiring on my '83 with no problems, keep those connectors clean. Your cable is good, cut off melted connector and solder on a new one. Heat shrink over joint.

 

Thanks gentlemen! I'll definitely do as you guys said. I'm also going to check the stator. I have a feeling I'm not charging the bad boy enough.

As an aside, any recommendations for stop and go traffic in 90+ degree weather haha. That temp gauge goes up about 3/5 of the way until I get to open the throttle on the freeway.


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Post #9 is where you need to look
http://vfrworld.com/forums/showthread.php/39277-How-to-fix-common-regulator-Stator-failures

 

Two vital tests that need to be done on any newly-purchased VF or VFR : Volts test across battery terminals to confirm it's charging right, and test or replacement of the fan switch on the rad as many are bad on older bikes and can ruin the engine if it overheats cuz the fan won't switch on.

 

Thanks! It seems to be charging ok (bump started, checked voltage at different RPMs and it matches properly). Tried another test with new battery (haven't changed the relay) but I clipped the ground, put the new o clip on it and made sure resistance was ok. Sill getting the relay click. I'm hoping it's the relay and nothing else... Any suggestions if the starter is stuck? I can't find any good diagrams showing exactly where it's located. I need to get out and ride! I've been mocked 5 times today by bikes passing me by in my car


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Hey All - Update, got myself a new starter solenoid, made sure wiring was right, etc. - went to start it and as soon as I turned ignition key to "On" the fuse popped. I decided, as a test to go back to the other relay and try again, using my own use made of 32 gauge wire making sure it had roughly lower resistance, it heated the first two times I turned the key then popped completely. I'm wondering if this issue is caused by a short somewhere. I've obviously never worked on a VF before so I don't even know where/how to start troubleshooting the issue. I'm guessing somewhere along the line there's a frayed cable or something not sitting right. Should I just start taking the tank off and loosening the retaining clips for the wiring harness and just check cable by cable and re-wire or is there a good order to check. Sorry if any of these questions sound stupid, I'm just unfamiliar and I'm pretty darn frustrated.


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Do you have a wiring diagram? That can help identify each component on the same circuit as that fuse.

Maybe in this FSM:

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/index....tory-service-manual-with-chapters-bookmarked/

FYI: There are no stupid questions.

 

Thanks for this! Had another version of it but this one seems to have a better image of the wiring. I can almost say with certainty it's either an issue with a component in the rear half of the bike. The fact the issues began with the starter solenoid and now it's the actual fuse popping while turning the key tells me I have a short somewhere or a component drawing too much amperage when I turn the key. Hell I'm not even making it to the starter button or kill switch now.

I'll take a look at the wiring again, could be anything "enabled" when the key is turned on that's on the same line as the ignition...


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Which fuse is popping? are you blowing the main fuse or just one individual fuse?

 

The fuse on the solenoid itself (30A)


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Disconnect the wire on the solonoid that goes to the battery and then turn the ignition on and if the fuse still pops you know the problem is in the wires from the plug on the solonoid going to the ignition switch

 

Found the issue gentlemen took the starter motor out after hearing a pop when I attached the negative to the battery. Got a very familiar smell. I'll take a picture... Of what's left of the brushes in the starter... Pretty much dust. No short anywhere, 13V going straight to the starter with continuity and good ground everywhere else led me under the bike where I discovered the mess that was the starter motor...


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I goofed up there I meant to say disconnect the wire from the solonoid to the starter but seems like you have found a problem. What still doesn't add up is why when you connected the battery it blew the fuse, only way this can happen is if the solonoid is activated by the start button or it is closed all the time. No other way power can get to the starter motor

 

I forgot to add, replaced with a new fuse (not the one that was prepackaged) and it didn't blow seems like the load of the headlight coming up was too much for the deprecated fuse.

Edit: Just to clarify, once I finished this I got under the bike, hooked a tap to the pole on the starter motor and checked voltage delivery, all good just no spin. When I took it out and benched it, it spun, stopped, spit out dust and stopped. That's when I pulled it apart and discovered the 1/4 cup of carbon dust from the brushes and a bent out starter motor.

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Id like to add that you guys have been great and a lot of the advice you've given has sparked me to really dig into the bike. With my dirt bikes I was never hesitant. They're easy to strip, minimal electronics and you can usually fix most things in the pit within 15-30 min. Can't wait to get the new starter motor and get back on the road. I'll start posting some pics on the blog as I start to clean the bike up. It's in great shape already but I want to really get it back to mint condition. At some point I may make some modifications. As you can see from my pics, my side panels are missing (previous owner's choice) and it's red. I think to "make it my own" I'll be working on a "naked" VFR. Windshield will come off, upper cowl and wiring will be re-done and stashed with the forks exposed. The suspension on it is mush, apparently typical, especially in the rear. I already checked pressure and it's good so I may take advantage, and lower it about an inch once the front matches. For now I'm going to enjoy the hell out of it. It's got some kick to it, sounds great, and handles great.
Again, thank you all for the help so far. I'll keep you all updated as I progress.


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