Salvage Title Conundrum

Salvage Title Conundrum EDIT: Pics!

I figured I'd bank on the vast experience of the board for my next question.

I mentioned in an earlier thread about a Gen4? 1997 that I'm looking at for a first bike. I'm trying to ease in to the 2 wheeled life without spending a mint on my first (not last!) ride.
Trying to stick around the $2000 mark, which I know doesn't bring back much these days.

Fast forward to the post that brought me here, which several of you have looked at. https://kansascity.craigslist.org/mcy/5543604635.html

In talking to the owner, apparently it has a salvage title. The story I'm getting is that they had full coverage on the bike, and turned it in to insurance when the "tip over" incident
happened. Owner maintains no wrecks or collisions in the history of the bike. He's 2nd owner, brother in law purchased it new, and all maintainence records have been kept.

Common wisdom I see thrown out here is to run from a Salvage title. Could it be a case of the damage to a 19 year old bike with full coverage simply not being worth the cost to fix that earned
this ride the dreaded "Salvage" treatment?

I don't want to make a bad decision, but I also don't with to miss out on a potentially great bike.

What say the veterans of the group?

Mutt

 

Interesting. my take is its possible, very possible he's telling the truth. Reason I say that is I had this very thing happen to me. I just got the bike not 700 miles on it we the wife and I where both heading out the door at the same time. thing was I had all ready pushed the bike out behind her she went first I'm thinking she saw me, she didn't and proceeded to back into the bike ^%# a couple screams later i went to the insurance agent and they totaled it due in part the frame was scratched and the cost of repair over shadowed their justification in repairing it ha-ha I ended up buying it back at a deal and got it fix for less than a 1/4 of what they claimed so Now I have a new bike that has a salvage title, so it does happen. In my case I wasn't interested in selling and knew what I had so it was ok. In your case this is one of those gut feelings you have to go with I'm afraid. Like I've heard, if it looks, smells, and acts weird then it probably is, in this case I'd offer him 1500 maybe be ready for 1600-1700 and go from that.

 

Affirmitave for the salvage title, though I haven't seen it in person. Went to look at it today, but didn't make it over there. I think I'm still going to go take a look at it tomorrow and actually see the title for myself along with service records. I know of the shop that apparently all the recent service work was done at here in town. It's hard to piece together conversation from email and texts. A good face to face conversation is in order here I think.

 

Remember that you may get a great price for a good bike on the front end of this deal but, when you go to sell it, you'll have a problem. The value when you sell it will be very low and you may have a hard time finding a buyer.

 

I can appreciate that. Suffice it to say, if I'm looking at a bargain purchase currently, I'm not as much worried about resale down the road. If I were dropping 8-10k, perhaps that'd carry more weight.

 

This from WIKI who recommend a more factual entry on salvage titles. The gist is that the "salvage title" is not universal even to the point of differences from state to state and province to province and possibly insurer to insurer keeping in mind that insurers to be able to do business in the various states must comply with state insurance regulations for each state. Canada (??)



In North America, a salvage title is a form of vehicle title branding, which notes that the vehicle has been damaged and/or deemed a total loss by an insurance company that paid a claim on it. The criteria for determining when a salvage title is issued differ considerably by each state, province or territory. In a minority of states and Canadian provinces, regulations require a salvage title for stolen or vandalized vehicles which are not recovered by police within 21 days. In such cases insurance companies declare a vehicle total loss and pay off the previous owner;[1] but, in others, it is issued only for losses due to damage. Under some circumstances, a salvage title denotation may be removed or replaced with a Rebuilt Salvage designation;[2] and cars imported to, or exported from, the United States may be issued a clean title regardless of history.

Because a salvage title can be issued to a vehicle with easily repairable problems or no damage whatsoever, the low cost of the salvaged motorcycle or car is appealing to some hobbyists and investors. Experts recommend caution when purchasing a salvaged vehicle, because there may be hidden damage,[3] which, if unrepairable, may render the vehicle a "pile of parts."[4]



Contents [hide]
1 Determination of salvage status
2 Resale value with a salvage title
3 Vehicle history reports
4 References


Determination of salvage status[edit]

In general, a vehicle is deemed "salvage" when the insurer determines that the repair or replacement cost is in excess of approximately 70% of its market value at the time of the accident or theft.[1][5] Thresholds range between 50% and 95% of the vehicle's value, while "total loss states" leave the specifics to the insurer. In the state of Michigan, the issuance of a salvage title does not mean that the vehicle is also deemed a total loss.[5] Michigan issues a salvage title when the damage equals 75-90% of the pre-damage value; if the loss is 91% or greater the vehicle is eligible only for a "scrap" title, which cannot be subsequently upgraded by any means. In Oregon, vehicles are determined to be Salvage title meet the 70% total loss value as state previously, as well as when a vehicle is abandoned and worth less than $500. [6]

Many people are confused about the actual repair cost that insurance companies use to deem the vehicle a salvage title. Skeptical shoppers automatically assume that 50-70% repair to value ratio of a vehicle would suggest that the vehicle is completely totaled and beyond reasonable repair. This is not aways true and the shoppers who understand this are the ones who can obtain very good bargains. Although it is true that salvage titles are typically issued to vehicles when the repair costs exceed 50-70% of the vehicle value, this percentage needs to be considered in detail before assumptions are made.

Upon paying the claim, the insurer may offer to return the vehicle to the owner as an insurance buy-back, in which case the owner is responsible for having the repairs made and having the car inspected by a State-designated facility. Depending on the state, this inspection may remove the salvage brand from the vehicle's title.[7] The exact percentage of value that triggers the decision to total the vehicle is guided by applicable laws and regulations. The damage estimate is calculated at retail repair rates, which may be more than the cost of wholesale repair. Vehicles that are not bought back are auctioned as salvage to an auto recycler or a rebuilder and given a salvage title.

Resale value with a salvage title[edit]

In the US, motorcycles and cars which carry a salvage title may not be registered and driven on public roads in most states,[8] which impacts resale value.[7] Rebranding of the title is not permitted without having an inspection to verify that they meet all safety standards.[9] The inspection procedure may be complex,[4] and attempts to illegally circumvent the inspections are periodically reported.[10]

Industry standards followed by the National Automobile Dealers Association Appraisal Guides, Kelley Blue Book Market Report Official Guide, and the International Society of Automotive Appraisers devalue a motor vehicle that has a salvage title. The Kelley Blue Book automatically rates any salvage vehicle as "poor" and does not value it at all.[11] The value of a vehicle with a salvaged title is usually 45-55% lower than the vehicle's estimated value. These cars cannot be registered or operated on public roads or highways[citation needed].

If the vehicle is rebuilt to a road worthy condition and has passed State inspection the difference in price is 40-50% of fair KBB. These cars have "rebuild" or "rebuild salvage" annotation in the title and can be registered and operated just like a new car.

Cars that previously had "junk" title and were restored to road worthy condition get a new title and VIN after state inspection. The new VIN will not match any other VIN numbers on the vehicle doors or panels. Year of the vehicle is determined by title issue date. These are considered to be self assembled cars.

Title washing refers to transferring a vehicle's registration for the express purpose of removing a title brand.[12] The practice is legal, and practiced by the insurance companies themselves.[13] Title brands such as "salvage," "junk," and "rebuilt" are not standardized, and a vehicle which has such a designation may receive a clean title when registered in a different jurisdiction. Further, vehicles imported to or exported from the United States and Canada are issued a clean title, even if they have been involved in an accident. Other states have relatively lax inspection criteria to remove the salvage brand.[2]

Vehicle history reports[edit]

Vehicle history reports sold by specialty services are intended to disclose the title history of the vehicle,[14] including title washing. Because many US states don't submit accident information to the central National Motor Vehicle Title Information System[15] and junkyards don't always file required paperwork for destroyed vehicles,[16] the accuracy of these reports is not high. Consumer Reports noted that vehicle history checks would at times produce "clean" results despite the vehicles' being offered for sale as damaged on salvage-vehicle resale websites;[17] title report provider Carfax settled a class-action lawsuit regarding the comprehensiveness of its reports in 2007.[18]

References[edit]

1.^ Jump up to: a b Griffin, Keith. "Understand Used Car Salvage Titles: Salvage Titles Not Always a Bad Proposition If You Act Carefully". About.com: Used Cars. NY Times. Retrieved 9 September 2010.
2.^ Jump up to: a b Thompson, Marsha (2006-03-09). "The Legal Business of 'Title Washing'". wblt.com. WBLT3. Retrieved 9 September 2010.
3.Jump up ^ Belli, Sr., Melvin M.; Wilkinson, Allen P. (2003). Everybody's Guide to the Law. HarperCollins Publishers Inc. p. 62. ISBN 0-06-055433-9. Retrieved 8 September 2010. "Serious damage may have been done to the car that has not, nor cannot, be properly repaired."
4.^ Jump up to: a b Parks, Dennis (2001). How to Build a Hot Rod Model A Ford. MBI Publishing Company. p. 17. ISBN 0-7603-0879-9.
5.^ Jump up to: a b Eversman, E.L. "The Purpose Behind Salvage Title Laws". AutoMuse. Vehicle Information Systems, Inc. Retrieved 3 September 2010.
6.Jump up ^ Jessica, P. "Laws behind Salvage Titled Cars in Oregon". PortlandMotorCars.com. Retrieved 4 March 2016.
7.^ Jump up to: a b Ets-Hokin, Gabe. "Buying a Motorcycle for the Compulsive or Impulsive- Part II". Motorcycle.com. Verticalscope Inc. Retrieved 9 September 2010.
8.Jump up ^ Ets-Hokin, Gabe. "Buying a Motorcycle Part IV: Where It Comes From A Day at a Wholesale Dealer's Auction". Motorcycle.com. Verticalscope Inc. Retrieved 9 September 2010.
9.Jump up ^ Congressional Record: Proceedings and Debates of the 106th Congress, First Session. United States Printing Office. 1999. p. 4808. Retrieved 8 September 2010.
10.Jump up ^ Futty, John (2010-09-08). "Ex-clerk gets 4 years in vehicle-title fraud". The Columbus Dispatch. Retrieved 8 September 2010.
11.Jump up ^ Andrews, Thomas; Benzing, Cynthia. "The Determinants of Price in Internet Auctions of Used Cars". Atlanta Economic Journal 35 (1). doi:10.1007/s11293-006-9045-7. Retrieved 7 September 2010.
12.Jump up ^ Reed, Philip. "Vehicle History Report: Your Key to a Good Used Car". Edmunds.com. Edmunds Inc. Retrieved 8 September 2010.
13.Jump up ^ "Wawanesa Insurance Found Liable for Bad Faith". Body Shop Business. Babcox Publications. Retrieved 9 September 2010.
14.Jump up ^ The Editors at Edmunds.com (2003). Strategies for Smart Car Buyers. Edmunds Publications. p. 64.
15.Jump up ^ Greaney, T.J. (2010-09-01). "State joins car title database". Columbia Tribune. Retrieved 9 September 2010.
16.Jump up ^ Korte, Gregory (2010-08-28). "Feds Investigate 'Cash for Clunkers' Car Dealers: Government Auditors Find $94 Million in Rebates May Be Ineligible Due to Faulty Documents". USA Today. Retrieved 9 September 2010.
17.Jump up ^ "Don’t rely on used-car-history reports". ConsumerReports.org. 2009-06. Retrieved 2010-06-18. Check date values in: |date= (help)
18.Jump up ^ Jensen, Christopher (2007-05-06). "It’s the Truth, but Not the Whole Truth". New York Times. Retrieved 9 September 2010.


Categories: Property law



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This page was last modified on 4 March 2016, at 21:54.

 

Thanks again for weighing in, all. I'm headed off to take a look at it as we speak.

 

Gnarlymutt, Be sure to let us know the result!

My two cents would be - give it fair dues. It might be a scary prospect, but equally, you might just get it at a steal. My first bike was a third-gen' (one prior to your potential machine) VFR750. It was scruffy, battered, and had been in the hands of at least one who'd toppled it. It was a brilliant bike though - rode beautifully, pulled like a train, purred silkily away like a bike half it's age and a quarter it's mileage. I learnt to ride on that thing, and cared not a bit about the scuffs and scrapes.

The 750's were exceptionally well made, as many a review will testify. Be interested to hear the verdict on this one.

 

Hope it what you want. Sounds like the owner bought it back from the insurance them selves, maybe just to make some $$. Negotiate. Are you in the same state as the bike?, should make things easier.

 

Okay everybody here is the results of my quest today. I will post pictures when I get home, but the bike is beautiful save for the unfortunate blemishes from the bike being dropped. Original owner babied the bike. I was able to view his notebook that showed every gas fill-up and maintenance done to the bike from the showroom floor through 33000 miles. He had a stroke so the brother-in-law purchase the bike from him. Brother-in-law had brake calipers rebuilt, carburetors rebuilt and rejetted, and new fork seals installed because one was leaking. Bike Has Two Brothers exhaust and a Corbin seat installed, as well as an aftermarket windscreen and the three set of hard shell cases. New front tire was put on and all fluids were flushed and refilled. New battery installed last fall as well. Owner indicates that when the bike fell over in the garage and he took it into a local reputable motorcycle shop, they told him that he should just turn the bill into insurance and then buy the bike back from insurance which is what he did. He says his title that he has shows clear though. Does that make sense? He says that the work he's had done on the bike ran him about $1,500. Obviously the Corbin and hard shell cases aren't cheap. With him asking 1950 for it what would be a good counter offer? Sorry for the block of text as this is being written by voice to text on my way home.

 

Gota love technological advances , talk to the phone and it types it up, crazy. suppose it does spell check too. What's the world coming to. Depending on the obvious blemishes, say like a dent in the tank or a major break in the faring that's an easy $200 off right there easy. You met him and have the feelings where he's at, But I'd throw $1700 at em and see how it goes. Now you say two brother exhaust, is that a full system or just a slip on? that is a huge difference right there. then adding to the ?? re jet? Hmm.. That too also throws a different think as the full system is next to unattainable, in good shape can bring some good $$$$. so if it is a full system might want to jump on the $1900 mark.

 

To me it sounds like a winner and should already be in your garage.

 

I edited to add a few pics I snapped but can't seem to figure out how to get them vertical... Grrr....

 

There is a dollar figure that you have to live with for it to be a good deal for you. Factor in that you will have a brutal time if you need to resell it and you can't get full coverage in the beast for yourself. Factor those two in and go for it and do not budge from that. You are in the catbird seat for an epic deal here.

 

After all this in what I saw, I'd like to know why it's not in your garage by now. also that looks like a two brother slip on as that's the stock collector I spy, still for $1900 you best get it before one of us track it down

 

LOL, thanks for vote of confidence, RVFR et al. I think I'm going to pull the trigger. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

One thing he did mention was that he noticed a slight shimmy in the front end around 40mph after having the front tire replaced. He noticed it when he took a hand off the bars. He mentioned he needed to get it down for an alignment/balancing to rectify the situation. I'd like to use that in my negotiations. What's a balancing/alignment run? Anyone have a clue?

I appreciate all of the guidance/expertise/thoughts you've all put in. Can't wait to be an official full fledged VFR owning member of this site!

Mutt

 

OML the inevitable head shake rears its head again.. LOL that is one of the weirdest traits of the 4th gen. it's more related to tire type. not head bearings like I first thought. I had this with mine and it took a different set of tires, I went from Dunlap to Pirelli FWIW, problem solved. This only happens on off throttle coasts hands off decelerating down through 40mph, any other time it's fine, and it only takes the slightest touch of a finger to make it go away. yea it's weird.

 

That's exactly what he described to me. Incredible. LOL Said he had eased off the throttle and turned to look behind him while removing one hand and felt it get a little squirrellly. Guess I won't be using that in my negotiation!

I think what really sold me was seeing the original owner's hand written notes of places he had service done, what mileage he was at for every gas fill-up, tire replacements, oil changes, etc. Bike still has the original manual along with after market service manuels, and what appears to be original tool kit still with it. I'm smitten, if you couldn't tell.