running rough, acting weird

bike is an 06 800 (rwb) with powercommander III, two brothers, aftermarket air cleaner (don't remember the brand, foam type from europe) and about 29k on it. had the bike since almost new, second owner and love it. running rough, especially at lower rpm. at lower rpm it misses pretty bad then kinda straightens out and "kicks in" all of a sudden. sometimes worse than others.

seems to run kinda rough and down on power in general. again, sometimes worse than others. some days I can hammer on her and she stands up and goes like hell. but usually not, lately. seems like this all started last spring but has slowly gotten worse.

other day she cranked fine when I got on her to ride to work. rode about 5-6 miles to the store. went in for a pack of smokes, less than 1 minute, and when I came out the battery was dead. jumped it off and road on to work, bout 45 miles. crunk right up that afternoon. sometimes it turns over fine, kinda stops cranking momentarily, then cranks and repeats. clock resets when this happens

sometimes after riding for a while, when its good and warmed up, it doesn't wanna start. don't mean like a charging issue, it will turn over fine, just don't wanna start

battery test and charges fine.kid at autozone said it tested fine though he did look kinda stoned. still the factory battery though

like I said, just running rough, vibration on interstate too, and seems down on power. been getting worse. at first was just an every now and thing, then ran good every now and then, now just runs kinda rough all the time and sometimes worse than others.

every spring I tear her down, clean her thoroughly and look her over real good. change plugs (ngk) every spring also along with ALL fluids. mobile one synthetic every 3k. only thing I haven't changed is the fuel filter. maybe ill do that but not suspicios of that really.

only other thing I can think to mention is the starter safety switch. few years ago it started acting up, every now and then wouldn't start in gear, got to where every now and then it would, then never worked again. no biggy, I just start it in neutral but might be worth mentioning

tearing her down this evening for her yearly, also added sea foam to the tank and the oil. any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated, thanks in advance

 

forgot too mention...

in the garage she idles rough and if I put the throttle lock at about 4k she jumps around about 500 rpm. misses then "catches" and so on. even kinda backfiring a little while holding throttle. bout the same at 5k

 

I notice you have belonged here for a few years and you did mention that you inspect the bike yearly. This does mean different things to different people so do not take offense if this is well-known to you. I am going to brain dump for the purpose of being thorough. Also given the age, many components are at that age and mileage where they might start giving you problems.

Do you have the factory service manual? It is available for download on this forum. Try these:

http://vfrworld.com/forums/showthread.php/3161-Downloadable-Parts-Catalogs-and-Service-Manuals

Something you should be aware of: After jump starting the bike and running it 45 minutes, this altered the system. The dead battery appears as a short circuit and the charging system is stressed to its limit. This can damage the stator and rectifier. As part of your troubleshooting use a multimeter to test them per the service manual when hot and when cold.

Since you joined a few years back you may have seen people referring to post #9 here. This is a list and how-to for troubleshooting electrical issues:

http://vfrworld.com/forums/showthread.php/39277-How-to-fix-common-regulator-Stator-failures

Next, have you tuned the starter valves on this bike? If no you can find the procedure here and on YouTube. It requires a 4-column manometer or four separate gauges. An imbalance in vacuum among the cylinders can cause on/off throttle performance, starting problems, and you would definitely notice an engine shake at partial throttle cruising, say 60 mph or 35 mph, in the 3700 rpm range (depending on your gearing.)

If the starter valve balance is far off and this happened suddenly that could be partially a symptom of a vacuum leak. At a minimum you should inspect all of the hoses on the throttle body, looking for any that come off easily and looking for tears. If you were feeling like a refresh is in order, you could replace them all at this time and be good for the next 10-15 years.

The starter valves, idle screw, and idle wax unit are all connected, so whatever tests are available for the wax unit, perform those. (Sorry I'm a 5th gener.)

Smell the oil - got gas? Appear normal?

Full throttle issues: Could include a coil problem (test per manual), fuel pressure gauge, fuel filter. Lots of possibilities. Your testing will eliminate each component as a culprit.

I wonder about fuel injectors: CandyRed is very proactive and recommends cleaning them every five years or so. You could also have gotten bad fuel more recently, exacerbating the age problem.

 

thanks for the reply knight. I was just reading up on "the drill" and will do that tomorrow. don't know if a charging problem would make the bike run rough? I tested the coils per a youtube video way back when this first started but it was much more intermittent back then.. will check that again tomorrow also. not a mechanic and don't have a lot of tools, just the basic shit. also don't have a lot of money so taking it to the shop is a last resort for me. don't have a lot of time either, lol.

to be clear, having to jump the bike had no affect on the problem. it existed before and after. seemed very odd to me that the battery that started the bike on a cold morning after not being started for a few weeks would just go dead like that, then never happen again... yet

and my yearly is just a tear down and good cleaning, fluid change, plug change and inspection of lines, wires and whatever else I can see.

never had the valves checked/serviced at 16k like recommended. just a matter of funds for me, $500 hurts. hoping that's not the issue. never did the pairing valve mod either but may do that soon

its not horrible by any means but it is getting worse. and I need to be riding it to work for my 91 mile round trip to work each day. for gas savings and parking. believe it or not, takes 30-45 minutes to get out the parking lot in my car, 2 minutes on my bike. and about a mile less walk. so ill be riding my junk regardless. just hoping to get her sorted out.

I can swing a new battery this week, if you guys think that may help. it is the factory battery

 

oh yea, don't suspect a bad fuel issue. like I said, been happening for a while. plus I buy my gas at one of two gas stations if at all possible and no issues with my other vehicles.

runs much better on the vtec and though down on power a bit, full throttle is pretty smooth

changemy oil religiously, use fuel system cleaners monthly rotating between lucas and stp. I did add sea foam to the fuel and the oil yesterday.will run this tank out then change my oil. rain kept me from running it out yesterday so I get to practice removing and installing the plastics

 

Boy, I hear you on life's crunches buddy.

But it could have created a brand new problem. (Ask me how I know?) When this is all over with, remember, don't run a motorcycle with a dead battery. You can with the car, but the motorcycle is more sensitive.

Do not put in a new battery until you have tested this or its life can be cut much shorter if it gets fully drained.

After the drill, if you charge your battery, leave it for a day, check the voltage and compare it to a battery life chart. 12.7 or so is like new and near 12V is ready to be replaced.

Valves can cause running problems but yes, they have to be out of spec. It is possible but most likely you will find another cause of the problems.

If you can borrow vacuum gauges that would be good. But you cannot get out of tuning the starter valves. It is a must at this mileage if it has not been done. It dramatically affects the throttle response and normal operation.

It is great to hear that your bike is such an asset to getting you around quicker. Makes it all worthwhile.

 

One of the guys on the VTR1000 forum had his bike drop onto one cylinder occasionally. We were all launching into suggesting fixes involving ignition coils, fuel level etc, but all it needed was a new battery. In your place, for the cost of a new battery I would throw one in and see if that improved matters. If nothing else it will eliminate one possible cause, and you can clean up the terminals/grounds while you're at it.

 

Are you really putting Seafoam in your oil or was that a double typo?

 

Cadbury, I think I will do that.it test out fine but its the factory battery and that's 9-10 years old. do I really trust the stoner kid that I dropped it off to at autozone? no, I don't. nothing against stoners, been one myself a time or two. but I wouldn't be surprised if he never really tested it. just my gut. plusthere are better, lighter batteries out there so, I can upgrade. might fix it, might not. but definitely cant hurt.


redwing, yes sir. I really did put seafoam in my oil. wont hurt a thing. 1 ounce per quart and run it till the oil gets dirty. it cleans out the sludge and deposits that may be in the engine. I put it in my oil right before I change it. never done it on a bike before but ive used it on lots of stuff. I will run one tank of gas through it then change the oil and retreat with zmax

 

No offense but seems like you might be a little additive-happy. Which can certainly cause
issues downstream. My guess is the fuel filter and /or injectors may be partly restricted
from the contaminants being liberated. Also possibly a pinched tank vent line, have you
tried opening the gas cap when it starts acting up?

And if the battery is 9-10 years old it may test fine on voltage, but was a load test done?
I wouldn't trust a battery that is any older than 3-4 years, like tires they may "look" fine
but are probably a bad surprise waiting to happen.

Starter valve sync, may be a contributing factor but in this case probably not.

And valve clearance is not likely a cause here, I would say 99% not.

My advice, get a battery and back way off on the additives, they can cause more problems than they fix!

 

I just just bitten in the ass after i bought a tankful of watery gas. :cower: I recommend completely draining the fuel tank and flushing it out on a yearly basis to eliminate any water that may have condensed and is sitting in the bottom of the tank waiting to cause running issues. Something to consider when a normally great-running bikes suddenly turns nasty. :uncomfortableness:

 

i see your point redwing, and im not offended at all. i can appreciate most points of view. i ride my bike a lot and once a month is just a guesstimate. probably more like every 10-15 tanks. and i dont run anything harsh. just stp and lucas to keep the fuel free of moisture. as for the seafoam in the oil... the oil was pretty clean when i put it in. one tank of fuel and changed the oil, it was NASTY! glad that stuff isnt in my motor anymore.

went to get a new battery, took my old one with me to be sure i was getting the right one. autozone load tested it and it was fine but made up my mind to get a new one anyway. only they didnt have anything i liked so i ended up at the interstate batteries store. the guy there said they have a "great" battery machine. multi cycles, heats the battery and multi load tests. they say my battery is at 97%. combined with the batterry still reading 12.65 volts after setting for almost a week and the fact that im pretty broke, i just couldnt spend the money on a new one... BILLS!!!

reinstalled the battery and went for a ride. bike ran pretty damn good. pretty smooth, made good power. felt sporty. even down at 3500 rpm in traffic, no surging or complaining. then it happened, like if someone threw a switch. while just cruising along my bike suddenly started running BETTER! i mean perfect!!!felt so smooth and strong... for about 20 seconds. then it went back too just running good. got home and the ole lady wanted to go for a ride. put a couple hundred miles on her. bike ran fine but not perfect. no issues though. not till tuesday when i rode it to work. on the way home started running kinda rough. vibration on the interstate got pretty bad, had to keep it under 80. got home and volts checked out okay??? which brings us to my next post...

 

And one of the biggest problems with these tanks is the shape, there is a bucket load of room for water to sit before it becomes evident. This is starting to rust away at all the lower sections and you don't even know about it till it starts leaking

 

worked on the bike today, tore into it pretty deep. did "the drill". charging system checked out okay. all wires and connections look fine. all my vacuum lines look good. gotta be junk in the tank and/or the fuel filter, rite? pulled the tank off looks spotless inside. poured the fuel out the filter into a mason jar. looks fine to the eye. had to order a new one so my junk gonna be setting for a few. that sucks bad but what can i do!?

decided to pull the air box and search around under there. immediately noticed dirt and debris in the bottom of the box and in the plenum runner things!! what the fuck!!! examined the air filter and all along the edges the caulk/ glue/ whatever these german assholes use to bond their foam to the edge of the filter is cracking and failing. and failing bad! i might as well not even have an air filter! i think the brand is piper cross or something like that. its a red foam filter with a big black x with a p in the middle. and it wasnt cheap, i think 70-80 bucks with shipping. pretty sure this shit aint good

im no mechanic and i dont know if this PIECE OF SHIT FILTER is what has been causing my problems, but i know an air filter is pretty important. more of a necessity than an accessory. i have no idea what kind of damage could have or has been done. i only have this sinking feeling inside from the second i looked inside my air box. and im pissed! i wanna go to germany and find someone thats works for pipercross and kick them in their nuts, twice!

so now im waiting on a fuel filter and i guess i need to find an air filter too. went ahead and changed the clutch and brake fluids. got those all bled out. flushed the cooling system and added new water wetter.cleaned the throttle boddies and all that crap, typical shit. gonna do the starter valves when i get my parts, borrowed some guages.

pretty disgusted, didnt even give the bike a good cleaning. maybe tomorrow. just hope it will be okay

 

Some of these aftermarket air filters are very sensitive to cleaning. They may even specify using only their own brand of cleaning fluids. Any other process could cause that type of meltdown. Just suggesting this as a possibility, not that it makes the current situation any better.