Bike won't start after cleaning connectors!

Summary:

2003 VFR800 both recalls have been done
VFRness was installed about a month ago

I have been tracking down a surging issue, that I feel may be related to a loose ground or something, as it seems to happen more when I am on bumpy roads.

I took off both side fairings and front fairing. Cleaned all connectors and relays with QD Electronics Cleaner

In the process I dropped the left turn signal bulb, so I bought a new one ( #7443)

I replaced all fuses with new as well, as my old ones had some oxidation on them

If I plug in the low beams, bike buzzes from the relay. Bike will not start, fuel pump does not prime.

If i unplug the low beams bike fires right up.

Turn signals seem to work opposite (when I signal left, right light comes on, and vice versa). Yes I have checked the orientation of the relay. Also the dashboard backlight seems to go on and off with the cadence of the turn signal, which is wierd.

I have double checked the headlight fuse, replaced it.

I am trying to troubleshoot. Where should I be checking for voltage/grounds? I swapped the high and low beam relays to test, same issue.

High beams plugged in without low beams don't seem to work, not sure if they are on a series circuit or something. Bottom line is my high beams aren't coming on either.

Only when I connect my low beams do I see the issue. In fact, only when I connect the Left side low beam do i get the buzzing and bike won't start.

Left low beam connector I measure about 10v, right low beam i measure just a few mV not sure whats up with that.

Please some help.

 

Also if I hold the starter button down the engine turns over (obviously I don't want to do that for long), and when I release the starter button engine dies. I am talking about when the low beams are connected. With low beams disconnected everything is fine.

As mentioned my bike had the wire harness recall, so my blue connector does not have the green ground wire that many people used to bypass.

None of my connectors look fried. I am trying to track down some of the "hidden" ground points.

I looked at the wire harness that goes into the low beam relay, and I see 10v on two of the wires.

 

I am fairly certain this is some sort of earth / ground issue. I believe that cleaning all the connections has resulted in some things trying to find ground via another component (does that make sense)? So one way to fix that would be to find all the grounds and clean them, that way they are the path of least resistance. My bike had the wire harness recall done, so I have no ground wire in the blue connector.

I found on the left front of the harness a taped up yellow connector with 8 grounds in it. Is this all of them or is there another "hidden" ground block like this? Connector looks fine, I have not opened its cap yet, as I can't figure out how to open it yet, but the wires look good and connector looks good. Is this seriously a ground? How do you take a bunch of grounds and float them in the air and call that a ground? Surely at least one of these wires has to goto a real ground? Can anyone help me out here and advise me on what to do to clean up this block and where it actually grounds to?

I know of only two additional ground points, the main ground by the rear cylinder head and just off to the side of that a ground point that has things like the fuel tank connections and a few others grounded there.

Here are the main symptoms:

Front turn signals work opposite, when I select right, my front signal flashes left, and very weakly also flashes right. Rears work fine.
When turn signals flash, the lights of the instrument cluster flash too.....I am talking about the backlighting!
If headlights are plugged in, the low beam relay buzzes, and headlights do not work, bike will not start, fuel pump will not prime
With headlights unplugged bike fires right up, but strange issues like the turn signals mentioned

Here is what I have tried:

I disconnected all relays one at a time: Bank Angle, Fuel Cut off, Engine Cut off, High beams, low beams, and turn signals
I still have issues disconnecting none of these solved it
I have double checked all the connections on the left side of the bike, and I double checked the ECM connectors
Reseated and checked all fuses, including the stray one just in front of the regular fuse box
Battery looks fine, will fire the bike up if I keep low beams disconnected
I inspected the front harness for any visible wear, burn marks, etc, it looks fine.
One wire on the Bank Angle Sensor looked slightly discolored, but even unplugging the BAS my turn signals still do the weirdness

This really seems like a ground issue. Where is the bike going to try to ground, and how can I troubleshoot this?

 

Ok, so here is the result of some testing with an Ohm meter.........people help me out, I am struggling here:

Left Low Beam Ground (Green) to Chassis Ground - OPEN
Left High Beam Ground (Green) to Chassis Ground - OPEN
Left Low Beam Ground (Green) to Left High Beam Ground - 0

Right Low Beam Ground (Green) to Chassis Ground - 0
Right High Beam Ground (Green) to Chassis Ground - 0

I tested the left side headlight grounds to the right, and they are OPEN
I also tested the left side headlight grounds to the grounding block (Yellow taped up thing in the front) and its OPEN

So my ground on the left side headlights, high and low is going somewhere, but I don't know where!

I tried to test continuity from there to every connection in the fuse box, to every relay and backtested to everything in the blue and grey connectors on the left side of the bike. OPEN on all of them! I tried to test continuity to just anything I could around that area, handlebars, etc, OPEN

Also it would seem Denso made our bike and Honda put their name on it, lol

Service Manual wiring diagram shows that the grounds of both left/right high/low beams is the same.

I can't make sense of this. I would order a new front sub harness if I new that was the issue, but it could be some relay or something (I suppose), but why would it only effect the left side? The harness part number is 32102-MCW-A01, which doesn't seem to be orderable separately!!! You can order the entire "recall kit", which is 06320-MCW-305 which includes the sub harness, some cable ties and a new starter cable (32401-MCW-D01), and its like $132 at ron ayers......sigh.

So I will order if I get to that point, but right now I need help in trying to figure out what might be going on, ideas?

 

Wow - information overload is rare on here.

But - sitting many thousand miles away the first question I had was - did the bike start and idle OK before you started your session?

I am assuming from your "been tracking down a surging issue" comment that until now the bike did start and run normally - but not perfectly?

So inherently the eccentric starting problem must be down to something you have done/undone.

I don't know whether US bikes have the same daylight running light set-up used in Europe - but if so ,then their is indeed an interconnect between headlights and starter circuits. Essentially low beams come on with the ignition switch and never go off - but to provide best starting performance a relay detects when the starter circuit is energised, and temporarily disconnects the feed to the headlights - allowing all power to reach the starter. When the starter is released the relay should revert to the headlight circuit connected mode.

So start by taking a 5 minute break - from the timing of your posts it looks like you have been at it for hours - drink tea or beer or both!:tea:

Then go slowly back over the stuff you disconnected and cleaned etc. Chances are something you removed has not been reinstated.

There is no reason to think any component would suddenly choose this moment to fail - so hold off replacing stuff - just reinstate looking closely at adjacent loom connections just in case something you did not "work on" got disturbed. Hopefully retracing your steps will at the very least allow you to get the bike starting normally - even if it does not resolve the surging issue.

Certainly on more recent models, many surging/uneven running issues tend to be linked to sensor inputs to the FI system - which is where I would be looking after checking for any stored MIL codes.

Good luck - and take a break.



SkiMad

 

Did you clean the oxides off of the female tabs for the fuse connections?
check your flasher unit and its contacts

I second the notion that surging would be sensor related. If a sensor is malfunctioning but alive, and you improve a dirty ground, it will just malfunction more prominently. (also, check your coolant)
I also second that you're also dealing with a 'safety' feature of starter/headlight relation. Jeeze, Ski knows his stuff XD

Just to be clear, you haven't installed a headlight modulator right? That can cause these symptoms on its own.

 

I don't have your gen bike, but I'll try to help you figure this one out.

When you cleaned the connectors, is there any chance that you mixed up the wiring or jammed a connector on backwards? Sorry, but I had to ask. Usually one starts by removing any new parts, but it's unlikely that the new bulb is causing this problem. Still, I would take it out, just to check off that box.

It looks like the low beam ground is shorted to the solenoid side of the relay. When the bulb is installed, the filament is becoming part of the circuit, which drops the voltage, which causes the relay to buzz.
I would check that ground wire for voltage. All grounds should be at 0V. You have to fix the ground problem, before you can do anything else.

 

FYI

The headlights are turned off, at start up, by a mechanically linked switch that is connected to the starter button. There is no extra relay involved.

PS. I have to learn to refresh, so I can check for other posts, before posting. Or stop doing other things, so it doesn't take me so long to post up.

PPS. With the number of circuits on this common ground, including the fuel pump, it is possible that it could be the source of the surge. Shorts can do some strange things.

 

I did clean the oxidation as best I could off the female side of the fuses, but basically i just sprayed electronic cleaner in there, not sure what to do to clean them better, I could seat/remove a fuse a couple times after spraying it.

The bike did indeed ALWAYS start fine, I never had any issues with starting. I never had issues with headlights.

I have been troubleshooting with the front cowl off, so headlights disconnected but turn signals in. I also tried to pull the signals but that didn't fix my headlight issue.

So even with headlights unplugged, I still get the wierd turn signal behavior. and strange grounds on the headlight connectors.

I am going back through every connection and making sure its connected right. Most of them if not all of them you can't reverse, they have tabs or slots which only go one way.

The ground issue is my primary thing I am focusing on. I want to get 0 Ohms between the green wire on my headlight connector (left side) and chassis ground.

I want to trace it back one step at a time, but I don't know where the other end of the green wire should end up? Does it first goto a grounding block? Or does it first go directly to a relay? I want to trace the wire one hop at a time, but its buried under gobs and gobs of electrical tape because thats how the factory harness is set.

 

it sure sounds like you have a connecter mixed up, did you have multi connecters unplugged at the same time?

 

i remember mostly disconnecting one at a time. I am not sure what could get screwed up. In the front the four relays are the same part, so even screwing those connections up would be fine. On the left side of the bike I had the R/R and VFRness stuff disconnected, I disconnected ALL of that (all wires on left side of bike), and still my left headlight ground shows OL..................

At this point I am replacing the harness, omw to go buy one and swallow that pill if nothing else to rule it out.

I just don't see how you can put an ohm meter on a green ground wire in the headlight connector and not find it on the grounding bock, chassis, battery, and it doesn't appear even when I disconnect relays. Right headlight ground is fine........

 

Does this help?



Its for a stock (non ABS post 2005 model) but should still be close to what you have, apart from the VFRness add-on. I think the lighting was pretty much the same although they did mess with the indicator lenses - requiring coloured bulbs.

Anyway it shows the earth wire (green) from the headlights all group together onto one green wire which first passes through a large multiplug, and then heads towards the bottom centre of the diagram to that huge mess of earth wires Tagged in Green 777. Chances are that connector is where your fault lies.

Although it is not very obvious, tucked at the bottom right corner, you will see that one of the other wires entering that earth point comes direct from the battery negative (also tagged 777).

Karazy is correct about how the starter switch works by physically breaking the feed to the headlamp relays when it is pressed and only when released, the switch reverts to closed allowing power to pass to the headlamp relays which should power back up.

I think you are focusing on the right area - its got to be a problem with the earth.

Hope that helps





Skimad

 

you say your signal lights are backwards, this indicates a plug that is reversed, check the large conecter for the front of your bike. also check lowbeam ground to this point

 

Ok, I am all fixed up here is the deal.

When I disconnected the wires on the right side of the bike, I apparently reversed two connections, as many in this thread suggested. I have a VFRness, and so its possible to take connectors that don't belong together and actually put them together.

Here is what I learned in the process. There are two connectors on the right that connect to the front harness. Each of these connectors has two green ground wires in them, so 4 grounds total. Two of the grounds are for the left side headlights, and two are for the right!

I also found that the connectors for our headlights are pretty tight in that there is not much cable slack provided. This coupled with a POS connector is a bad combo.

At least I took advantage of the situation to clean all earths, relays, connectors, clean up the road grime and learn to take the front plastics completely off and on.

I appreciate everyones help and suggestions. I am still hunting for what causes my RPM's to drop under constant throttle, that's a whole different thread.

 

Phew - Thanks for the update :thumbsup: at least no harm done


Should we get ready for the new thread? opcorn:? ?


Take care







SkiMad

 

Happy Endings always get me misty eyed. :vtr2:

Gota love electricity...

 

How grindingly apt and true !! As long as electrons remain unelucidatingly invisible to the humanoid eye, electrickety will remain cunningly elusive.:tongue:

 

Yes get ready for the new thread! Lol, seriously, I have like at least 5 threads with 0 replies on here, but every day I seem to have more questions. Mostly fueled by me trying to track down the source of my RPM's dropping at steady throttle! there isn't a day that goes by that I don't work for hours trying to sit with my shop manual and try to figure out if everything is working right.

 

OK the weather over here is dire along with the TV programmes, so when there is a gap in the rain I will be getting the supplies in. :biggrin:

Inherently the PGMFI system is an interdependent heap of sensors and components designed to deliver precisely the right amount of fuel at the right time in response to rider and other inputs.

I would be looking at the system schematic to identify which components could be producing the behaviour you observe.

As the engine runs fine at times, it sounds like most of the system is sound, but it suffers throttle drift despite a fixed throttle input. Hence it very much sounds like a sensor is failing.

Sadly these components, especially the ECU are not cheap so a round of careful removal, cleaning, examination, testing and reinstatement would be my first line of attack, before resorting to substituting known good components until the problem is resolved - and the true culprit identified.

Assuming there are no stored MIL codes to work with, certainly my focus would be on the ECU input from the throttle position sensor and related wiring. Think of it this way. When working correctly the TPS should be sending the ECU a nice continuous and smooth input, which the ECU should be interpreting as instruction to maintain a steady RPM. Evidently that is not happening. However don't overlook other interactions/inputs. Behind the scenes the ECU will also be responding to inputs from other stuff like the fuel pressure sensor, the intake air temperature sensor and barometric pressure sensor and tweaking fuelling accordingly. So if any one of them is sending wrong or intermittent inputs, then the ECU will simply do its best to respond. Again faults with those inputs may result in the sort of slow cycling down and abrupt surge back up in the RPM. I really hope for your sake the ECU is not faulty.

Anyway take your time, be methodical, check only one item at a time and then test ride the bike. If it makes no difference cross it off the list and move on. As I said earlier, it worth a session thinking through what could be producing the symptoms, (and at least to start with ignoring components which must be fine given the bike is still giving periods of acceptable running).

From memory the system should be roughly

Fuel pump
Fuel filter
Fuel pressure regulator
Fuel pipework
injectors
Return pipework/filter
Throttle assembly
Throttle position sensor
Cold start device
intake air pressure sensor
intake air temperature sensor
External air pressure sensor
cam shaft sensor
engine speed sensor
engine temperature sensor
ECU
Tip over sensor


Hmm - More than I thought - so you might want to check the manual...
Good luck




SkiMad

 

skimad4x4, thanks for your sound advise! I have replaced many of these components: FPR, Fuel Filter, had the injectors "tested".

My next focus is the TPS, despite evidence that it is rarely at fault. Because I have a PCV, I can see the TPS voltage in the PCV software. So I will hold throttle steady until I can reproduce the issue, and then see if TPS voltage is changing. As you mention, TPS should be continous and smooth. If I have the throttle perfectly steady, or even if the bike is at idle (closed throttle), I should see no deviation of TPS (is my understanding).

Luckily, if its the ECM, TPS (which would require a new throttle body), etc. I can get these parts off ebay for relatively cheap ($100-150 in most cases). So I am more concerned about finding the issue and fixing it. Honestly, TPS/throttle body or ECM I would buy used. A map/iat/ect etc sensor I would just buy new.

The most likely suspect, to me anyways, seems to be the TPS, however, in many many cases, I find where it would appear to be the TPS, in previous threads on here, it is rarely ever the case. But Its relatively easy for me to check it so that is my next focus!