Is ABS really worth the cost?

To be clear here, I am not talking about a little mud or sand on the road way, then ABS will help. Where it can lengthen distances is in heavy dirt or sand, ie off road riding. Hence the BMW GS series has the ability to switch off the ABS, while most of the street bikes haven't been able to in years, some ever.

 

PorscheBob is probably correct assuming :-

a) We all do what he wisely says and practice, practice, practice. But do we??

b) We NEVER have to brake hard on a wet (or otherwise tainted) surface.

For me, ABS is worth the (possible) slight increase in braking distance.

 

right, and you can't practice for every possibility
nor for how you will do when looking at a sudden Ford Exploder that just pulled out in front of you
the idea is that stead practice will make you more relaxed about it, but you can't tell
That isn't to say I don't recommend practice, practice, practice. But me cutting across an empty parking lot on a nice summer day, when I am fully relaxed and focused and get to choose when to brake is a world of difference from; a little tired from a long ride, starting to drizzle a little, thinking about what I need to do at work Monday morning, look down to check my speed, and look up to see traffic has completly stopped in front of me. While the any practice should help me, I didn't practice under those circumstances, and while my life is now flashing in front of my eyes. And now I need to look for a potential escape route, (or ideally check if a previously chosen one is still availible) I need to check my mirrors to make sure I don't stop in time, only to become a hood ornament for the person behind me who didn't...
None of that stuff was a factor in the parking lot. All is a major factor now.

The only, or biggest, problem with ABS and 4 wheel drive is people have unreasonable expectations and expect technology to defy the laws of physics -- it isn't happening yet people.

 

But, properly with ABS is different than proper use without ABS.

No, it isn't magic, it is technology and computing power. They only, and for an exceedingly brief period of time (differs by system, overall getting shorter and shorter all the time), disengage the braking, we are talking about mili seconds here in all cases, even the very early versions. they then very quickly, again, quicker than you can blink, re apply the brakes. And even they only do that, when you are on the precipice of lock up, which when it happens reduces your stopping efficiency. And on a motorcycle, can lead to serious control issues; besides notably longer stopping differences.

Really, let's think about this logically -- take emotion and ego out of it. In this extremely over litigeous society that we have created here in this country, do you, does anyone, really think for one instant, that if ABS reall lead to crashes there wouldn't be multi-million dollar lawsuits out there? And that the systems would then be withdrawn, or for that matter never offered, because the manufactures wouldn't want to face the lawsuits? Heck, you don't even say ABS leads to crashes, you have said caused. So for anyone out there following back and forth, and wondering about each case, and lacking the ability to test each "theory" back to back, think about that.

It isn't about liking it, it is about recognizing its potential life and limb saving ability and being man enough to admit, that I, and 99.9 % of us, am not at the level where I can compete with what a computer can do in this case.

And I don't "use it", except in a controlled test in a parking lot so I would be familiar with its feel. Oh and on my BMW I used to use it to scare people (generally people I knew:smile: ) by charging straight at them, and them slamming on the brakes.
Even this morning, I didn't engage it. Riding to work in the rain (car is in the shop), BMW 5 series wagon pulled into my lane about 3 - 6 feet in front of me. This is at highway, albeit congested highway speed. I was going significantly faster than he was, he obviously did not even see me (red bike, red aerostitch suit, high beams on, easy to miss). Because I was aware and ready, and have easily over 100,000 miles of riding I still was able to bring the bike down to a matching, and even slightly lower to increase the distance between, speed. Quickly and without drama. Without engaging the ABS, without losing my cool, and without losing stability. But I am smart enough,and man enough, to realize that it very easily could have gone wrong.

 

Hey guys - I have been, and maybe others have been talking about how you do or do not like ABS. Well I just refocused on what this thread is about and that is if it worth what they charge for ABS. Now, I do not like ABS but I honestly cannot say they are not worth the money. I also am not saying I am such a great rider I do not need them. BTW I really do agree with Spike about ABS and 4 wheel drive expectations also.

 

What skill to use ABS correctly? All you need to do is BRAKE, for all you are worth, and let the computer do the rest. Squeeze and press -- no skill involved. Beyond remembering not to use it like a non ABS system. You can now concentrate all your brain power on the rest of what you need to do. You aren't trying to feel that fine line of impending lock up, in both the lever and in the pedal, processing that, releasing the appropriate one, and then reapplying. You can now look for escapes, pay attention to the changing environment (are you best served now by not braking and zipping out of the trouble zone?). Your foot, through the hydraulic line, to the master cylinder, then to the brake lever or pedal, then trough your gloves or boot sole and sock; can not begin to compete with a sensor mounted on the very wheel you are braking. That very sensor tuned to the nth degree, in a lab, in controled circumstances, over hundreds, if not thousands of hours of testing and fine honing. Then tested in the real world to validate the findings, long before it was put in the hands of the mighty consumer.

Now without ABS, to use standard, if you will, braking, to even near its fullest extent, you need significant skill.

Again, point to any accident and please provide case history, of ABS actually causing an accident.

And you state, or at least imply, you have seen them cause multiple accidents? How many accidents have you actually witnessed? I can't think of the last time I saw one happen, nor did I ask the drivers/riders involved if their vehicles were equiped with ABS, and if so, whether the ABS was engaged at the time of impact. But if you are are seeing that many accidents happening around you, enough to make any conclusions, all I can say is WOW! I would be nervous about that many accidents happening around me, and would wonder if it could be me or what I was doing....:smile:

As far as being safe with ABS, you may not be safe without them:wink: so the point is moot.

Again, to apply logic, if ABS is so bad, and causing accidents, why is it being rolled out on an increasing number of cars and bikes? If it were only for the old and truely unskilled, we would only see it on Chryslers and Buicks:wink: If it were proven to cause accidents, it would be pulled from every car and bike sold.

You certainly wouldn't see police departments across thoe country rolling out ABS in their own vehicles; cars and bikes included, if they thought for one instant there was not value in ABS. And you are talking about a group that has visited crash scenes and talked to more crash survivors than you or I ever would. If they were really hearing countless woes of how "that damnable ABS caused my accident," do you really think any department would specify ABS equiped vehicles?

More logic. If it was so bad, and only for the truely stupid or ham fisted, why would it specifically be banned in Formula One racing? If it were so awful, no one would want it and have tried to use it, and thus, there wouldn't be a ban on it. The reason it was banned is because it provides an advantage to the drivers. It is banned under the driver's aids umbrella. Certainly you aren't arguing that those drivers lack skill? Hmmm???:smile:

The only reason, and this is a fair bit of suposition, but I am not the only one to put it forth, you don't see it in Moto-GP is that no team wants to spend the time, money and energy to develop something that almost assuradly (sp?) be immediatly banned. And the governing body is only reactionairy. Just like they already ban traction control devices.
I am man enough to admit, I can't compete with their skills. And my riding environment is not nearly as controlled as theirs.

I mean, I really hate to throw logic around like this, but really people, let's think about this.

You can argue about what oil, tires, filters to use, or what break in is best, those are all debatable, and there are pros and cons to every side; but there is no way to argue that ABS is not a significant safety advance on cars and bikes. Perhaps the most significant one in years. If you don't want to, or can't pony up for an ABS equiped bike, that is one thing; but to say that they systems in any waycause accidents is just wrong and bullheaded. Unless you are doing a lot of offroading, or a lot of track days (but even then I would want to jetison the LBS way before I got rid of the ABS).

 

Ah, I love conclusions without data .... my friend left a 36 foot skid mark before he hit the truck. I'm guessing he would have been going a bit slower when he hit if he didn't skid ... with ABS, he would not have skid.

 

abs

I have the vfr abs it was the leftover so I bought it
I have worked on euro cars for 20 years I know all about car antilocks
I have only ridden the bmw and the honda systems
Car systems kick the pedal back and buzz .People who dont know what 's happening threshold brake ,they dont stomp the pedal and that will extend the stopping distince . Ice plays havic with older abs systems they hold the pedal up and you roll down the hill I needed to know what would happen when the system kicked in .I hate suprises on a bike.So I went out on a wet cement pad rolled to 10 or 20 mph and grabed a fist full of front brake.
the lever just felt a little wooden . pulling harder on the lever did not increese the braking I was trying to sort of do a stoppie and suddenly the front tire found enough traction and the bike stoped moving:redface: I know that was why I was pulling on the brake lever but I did not expect to stop that soon.
The next time I was ready for it and it was not a problem . practis stoping
It will pay off.

 

WOW!! now I understand why they offer with or with out ABS has nothing to do with cost, i would never of guessed how controversial abs is!!