engine won't crank manually

"Anyway, there's NO NEED for starter switch......just touch +12 volt to starter terminal, but it's hopeless unless you can turn it by hand."

Same thing. But having that tool can prevent the starter post from getting melted.
That is what a starter switch does. Take heavy loads like that safely.

If you can turn the counter shaft in gear that means the engine is not frozen.
If you can turn the countershaft sprocket in neutral that means the trans is ok.

At least he is trying to learn something and NOT just go buy another bike.
HE will enjoy this experience, it will last a lifetime. He is learning to be a real mechanic.

 

Yes I agree. If it will not turn over - THEN take it apart and inspect. That is the right way.

 

You know as I read this thread It makes me realize how many young men are being cheated by not having basic classes at high school for this kind of thing, and No apprenticships. It is really sad.

The only problem with the internet is people chime in with suggestions that have never taken an engine apart themselves.

It is sad.

 

I've dealt with several stuck engines in the past. Marine fogging oil has worked wonders in place of the oil, wd-40, pb blaster, etc that the others have mentioned. Just spray it in and let it sit over night then spray again the next morning. Repeat several days and if the rings are what are sticking that will take care of it.

I do agree with others though, open it up a little bit and inspect BEFORE cranking it over to prevent further damages.

 

I find myself agreeing with toe and squirrel on this, if you cant turn it over with a socket and a breaker bar then you can try the oil trick, but I caution you if it does break loose , you should open it up and check the bores for damage. you could also have a stuck ring that would make things worse. Its your engine, do as you think best, but if it was mine id be looking at open block surgery.

things to check:
1, its in neutral
2, plugs are out
3, the drive sprocket turns freely (verify in neutral)
4, you might be in-between gears: this doesnt happen often but can happen on older, worn tranmissions.

if nothing works then your taken it apart.

 

Ummm...much as I hate to be the buzz kill...you may want to evaluate your reasons for embarking on this project. Older V4's probably not the best 'learner' engine to rebuild. They can be trying even for experts. And when you're all done it's not like an 84 VF750 is gonna be worth a great deal.

Regarding transmissions on these things...they can have problems that you won't know about 'til you ride the bike, or visually inspect gears and shift forks and know what you're looking for. It's because of this (not obvious) that some older V4's get parked and sold. That's one of the 'scary' things, I think, about buying an 85 or older V4 that's not running. Stick a bunch of time and money into it and that first ride finding out it 'pops' out of second gear.

Then when you throw in a potential top end issue, rusty fuel tank, gummy carbs, leaky fork seals, needs a battery, brake calipers stuck, chain and sprockets shot, tires wore out...and to top everything off...some of the parts are no longer available.

I don't know whether all this stuff applies to your project, but if you're just looking for a ride...look for a decent used machine that's not gonna be a frustrating money and time pit. If it's the challenge and project thing that 'turns your crank' I guess go for it.

 

A good thread by all. Squirrel is correct that you may free it up with some lube and luck. I always fear the worst and assume that grit from rust will make matters worse if turned over and my goofy mental capacity requires me to disassemble , inspect and side on caution. Then Dizzy hops in and brings even more clear thinking into it and you may be dollars,time and anger/frustration ahead to bail or find another donor engine that runs. This engine is one of the trickiest to repair and has the most unseen pitfalls that can only be realized after the fact and I include all engines I have worked on....it is in the top five.

 

Thanks for all the replies guys. If I had any inclination that the engine might be bad I probably would not be proceeding with this. I guess I could have started out by saying the guy I bought it from said the engine was running a few months before I bought it. On top of that, I was able to manually turn the rotor last summer and the bike has not been touched since then, so I am thinking it is nothing big. Again, I am in this mainly for educational purposes. This has always been something I wanted to do and now that I have some time to do it I am eager. If I can get it running and in shape great, but if not I have learned a heck of a lot and have not put hardly any money into it. I know this is a difficult bike to work on, but if I can learn on this that greatly increases my chances of knowing other bikes as well. I appreciate all of the advice and keep you all updated on how things turn out!

 

Just an update. Front valve cover off. Everything looks clean and solid. Chain tension is not loose at all. Same for the rear. I removed the spark plugs and sprayed PB blaster into the holes. Off to the parents house until Saturday so hopefully by then I will know more. Thanks again for all the advice.

 

One thing that is TOTALLY different about the V4 Vf1000F or VF1000R is that the cases split HORIZONTALLY. That is VERY unusual and it means you can take the engine apart down to the trans without taking the very bottom case out of the frame.
It also has a removable oil pan which most motorcycles do not have, and you can get to the oil pump.
Very unusual.

 

But does it turn over by hand with the plugs out?

 

You will always remember this and you have already learned a lot.
If it was me I would just try one time with the electric starter and just see if it moves at all.
A little bit of lubricant overnight will help. I think it will turn over.

If it won't turn over with the electric start then you will have to take it apart.
But I would still just tap the button a couple times. The starter has a clutch so no need to worry.
I would bet it will spin.

 

If I use my car battery should I use it with the car on or off or does it really matter?

 

OFF,

but i'll bet that if you can't turn by hand, starter won't do anything.....hope i'm wrong.

Lots of damage could be done by forcing it to turn...or maybe just stuck rings, no problem.

 

I work on alot of engines, as a rule if it will not turn over you must disassemble at least to the point of failure.At the very least before you throw the juice to the starter run a bore scope down the spark plug hole and check for excessive corrosion that could damage the bore,piston and rings if turned over.I have a gen 2 engine here that was stuck and pulled the heads off and the corrosion was severe but it clean up nicely , would have been a total loss in short order if run without cleaning the bores and pistons.

 

Got the rotor bolt off, then took rotor off... Everything looks clean. Put rotor back on and could turn rotor freely. I tried the remote starter and could hear engine trying to turn over. Afterwards, remote starter wires were very hot...is this normal? From what I experienced tonight I will definitely have to dig into the engine and do a bit of cleaning but I'm thinking it's not a total lost cause.

 

The starter wires can get hot but it depends how many attempts were made. You should give the starter a 5 minute rest after a couple attempts so you do not melt the starter windings.
But you have done all you can and now the engine needs to have the heads and cylinders removed and inspected.
There is ONLY one more thing you could do. Drain the oil and remove the right side case and look for any damage to the starter clutch and if you want you could remove the starter and see if the starter spins when it is NOT hooked to the engine. This is to find out if it is the starter or the engine. If it is the starter that is damaged then the engine should turn over by hand. See what I mean?

You really need a shop manual from now forward.

The next step of coarse is to remove the heads as explained in the shop manual and the removal of the cylinders.
Only tap on the pistons with a wood block not a steel tool.
DO NOT CLEAN A PISTON with a wire brush or it will be ruined.
You will need a set of rings and the cylinders will need to be honed before putting it back together.
Depending on the condition of the cylinders depends on the type of hone that can be used. More on that later.
You will also need a top end gasket set.
You cannot re use the old piston rings. They will never break in.
Piston rings is another whole subject I do not want to get into right now.
But when you get the piston rings LEAVE them stacked in the order they arrive in .
More about that later.

IF, and this is a BIG if...the pistons are siezed they will have to be replaced and if they are siezed then you will have to inspect the rod bearings. You just have to wait till you get the cylinders apart.


You are halfway home!!

 

How many people own boroscopes? C,mon
Sometimes a LED light will reveal a broken valve.

 

All this talk of stuck pistons and locked up engines reminded me of something that is only mildly applicable in this case. When I worked on bikes, back in the dark ages, we would have a rash of locked up bikes show up every Spring. These were mostly Triumph twins for some reason. The story was always the same: They were all put away running and left to their own devices until the warm weather rolled around again. We would always ask “is there and unvented dryer in the garage?” And the answer was usually “yes.” I am sure this type of thing happens to all bikes, stored in a high humidity environments. We had a fix that was easy on a pushrod twins. I am not sure that it would be so easy on a over head cam Vee four. We would take the pressure off the valves by removing the rocker boxes, then squirt a little WD40 down the spark plug hole and using a special air chuck, (made from an old spark plug with the insulator busted out and an air nipple brazed on), we would put 120 PSI of air pressure on that cylinder. It would take about 20 minutes and the cylinder would “swish” down to the bottom of the bore. In these cases you don’t really want to force the crank or beat on the tops of pistons with hammers or blocks of wood. In all the bikes we fixed we never had a problem with broken rings or particulate contamination. (Of course Triumphs do a pretty good job of contaminating themselves.)

 

If you try to remove the cylinder and a seized piston or piston rings is "welded" together from friction
you WILL have to knock it loose. All we did is just take the hammer handle and TAP it a couple times and it will come loose.

It is not a big deal. The piston is already ruined.