Where has the SPORT/touring class gone??

This is a question that's been rolling around in my head as of late. Assuming that the new VFR (7th gen) is still considered by most us to be a SPORT/tourer, why are few other brands producing any bikes in this class? To think of it, I can't really think of any besides, maybe, the Triumph ST, but even that bike may be more on the touring side. You see, I consider our VFRs to be full on sport bikes. Not super sports or race bikes, but comfortable, heavier, refined sport bikes. Sure, I could go to the East Coast on my bike, but I'd be much more comfortable on an ST1300, BMW R1200RT, Connie, etc., than my VFR. Even with my Sargent seat, I still get uncomfortable after 45 minutes in the saddle. That coupled with the sportier ergos don't make it the best tourer; although I know many of you have taken some long trips on VFRs (but I bet you could tour more comfortably on an ST1300). It was only a few years ago that we had such bikes on the market as the VFR (all generations), Ducati ST2/ST3/ST4, Kawi ZX-11/12, and the Aprilia Futura. To me, it seems like this is a big market, but maybe that's just because it's my market.

Wouldn't it be cool if in addition to the VFR, Honda came out with a CBR1000St. Imagine a CBR with similar ergos to the VFR (though I doubt Honda would make a bike to compete with the VFR). What if Kawi came out with a less agressive version of the ZX-10; something inbetween the ZX-10 and the 14? Same for all the other brands.

Just a thought.

 

It's a thought I've been pondering as well.

As an owner of a 5th gen from 1998-2001 and a Triumph Sprint ST from 1999-2004 and an owner of a 5th again from 2007 to present, it seems to me that the 7th Gen is not a SPORT/tourer anymore but is more in line with the Concours 14 and the FJR.

So, a sport/TOURER. Perhaps the 7th gen is a tick less tourer than these but it is darn close. The only thing that makes me think it is less of a TOURER is the lack of an adjustable windscreen but the shaft drive, ABS, etc. takes the cake for me in terms of calling it more of a TOURER.

I don't call the Honda ST1300 or its predecessor the ST1100 a sport/TOURER. It's just a tourer to me.

However, I should clarify that I have never ridden the Concours or the FJR or the ST.

However, I am not opposed to the VFR shifting strategies a bit no pun intended. I wish it weighed less but I like the idea of the new dual clutch transmission and something more comfortable than my 5th gen or my Sprint ST would be welcome. I won't forgot how to shift anytime soon and have two standard shift bikes so if I want to get my shifting kicks, I'll wheel around on one of those.

It is no longer what the previous generation VFRs or the Sprint ST or Ducati ST's were and I'm willing to take a look at it with an open mind but I'm hoping my dealer lets me wheel around on one for a bit.

 

I have decided to hold off my 1200 bashing until I can touch one. But it has a lot to live up too. I unsure if it has the same soul of it's pedicessors.

 

I agree^^^^However hondas success selling the vfr line have been less than steller over the last decade(It has been a rarity to even see one on the dealer floor unless someone ordered one)out of sight means out of mind making sales even less. Seems as though cbrs and more touring based bikes have left the showrooms in volumes and there has been less of a demand for a jack of all trades type of bike. It is easier to sell someone something when you can argue that it is the best in a certain area vs. being good in many even though 90% of buyers would be happier in the long run with a bike like the 5th and 6th gen VFRs. The new vfr IMO should have been 800-1000cc(130-140hp) comfortable ergos(similar to 5th or 6th gens) shave 30#s off of a 5th gens weight with updated ajustible suspension, drop the VTEC and some fresh styling for a wining combination.

 

Maybe the reason it's a niche market is because so few riders are interested in doing both sport riding and distance riding. And there is always the "image" thing to contend with.

Most of the younger people I know want RR style bikes, and most older riders are on BMWs or Harleys. I had the option of going with a used FJR, ST or BMW when I was shopping for a longer distance bike, but I wanted to be able to do some serious cornering when I was in the mood. I sat on all of the afore-mentioned bikes (didn't ride any), and I couldn't imagine pushing them through a corner with any degree of comfort or trust, even though the road tests I had read said that they did a good job.

Many of the touring-style riders I have talked to assume that the VFR is uncomfortable, although they have never even sat on one. They automatically categorize it as a crotch rocket based on appearance.

And how many newer riders get an RR bike, scare themselves silly, collect a bunch of tickets, or hurt themselves? Rather than examine the cause of their bad experience, they swear off bikes or get a cruiser without exploring any of the options.

So I guess what it comes down to, from my perspective, is perception based on ignorance and/or inexperience, and I don't mean that as a judgment, or in a negative fashion. The ST market is narrow because most people are narrow minded.

 

Very insightful! :thumbsup: Even if a dealership wants to start promoting the SPORT/touring class the reality is that customers either want a liter bike rocket or a mobile couch. For the crotch rocket crowd if they'd be real honest with themselves and their capabilities I'm sure there would be an increase in the SPORT/touring market. After all, some of the latest full-on sportbikes perform so well that you can only realize their potential on a race track.

 

+1 to Joey on the sport bike assesment. But Shamu is in no means what we are used to from something tagged a "VFR" anything. I'm not looking for a FJR or ST1300.I have no problems with the sport-tour bikes, I kinda dig my FZ1 with all the soft luggage. But I want to take this chance to fully support the VFR1200 and whole hartedly encourage all you VFR800 owners to rush to the local Honda dealers with all those 5th & 6th generations with no mechanical problems, that are well maintained, have a longer cruising distance, fitted with all those aftermarket goodies & trade them obsolete hunks of crap in. ACT NOW! Don't let the poor economy stop you! Oh, you might have to take a loss on their real value but what the Hell? This is the paramount of the Honda line. Oh and one more thing, put new rubber on them. The wife and I would be happy to have his and her 800's by spring.

 

Very well said. Funny how so many folks that ride always look towards what their bike can't do versus what it does real well. the ole grass is greener on the other side syndrome?? To me Honda was trying it's best to keep on doing what it was doing. But when you had/have the best in the first place, that would be a tough challenge to make better and IMO they have failed. The 3rd,4th and 5th models have the true best of just about everything a bike could do. Period. if your butt disagrees, so be it, it's your ass, not the bikes fault, less something that is truly an engineering opps. like tires ?? or suspension gremlins which BTW can be remedied fairly easy, as that is one thing that's a finite adjustment to ones riding and expectations. If that's not good enough of a fix, just maybe it's you that has the problem, go work out, lose weight, get flexible, get yourself in shape, know how to maneuver your ride. This thing about being uncomfortable in minutes is plane BS. if you can't ride then don't, don't put down a machine cause it's your back that doesn't like it. or your expectations where not meant.
Side note here. I just got back from a 1100+ non stop mile road trip picking up a Audi S4, what a car, love what it has to offer, but after those 1100 miles I wanted out, it wasn't the car, it was me.
Yea it's disappointing to admit just maybe your bike you fell in love with doesn't fit right, Oh well.
Now if you're one that has a lot of time in the saddle, actually done track days or some track school (It's what you learn) , know what a bike is suppose to do, then start complaining about the nit picky details, that's different, you have something to compare too. On the matter of the new VFr1200 I'm thinking here that Honda thinks we older farts (sport bike riders from the past aka Freddie Spencer type) would like this bike, ha, man who did their market study? Bottom line the 3rd 4th 5th is and are a true get out and do it right bike, it can carve up a back road with the best of 95% of the sport bikes (I know) and go across the states in style and leave nothing in the wake but pure enjoyment. On the question of sport vs tour it's a blend in what YOU do as a rider, not the bike, yes, I agree to getting off on the right foot bike platform wise helps, but I have a many a friends that can and do 3000 miles back road adventures on 1098s. Imagine and ego plays to much into this what works scenario, I say get off your high horse and get what makes it right for you. it's not about keeping up with the Jones, it's way more fun to be on a bike that works for you. There's another saying that sorta goes along with this, it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow. I'm not getting what the VFR is trying to get at, seems to be a bit late to the table, and the other manufactures are able to listen and create machines the folks are asking for. As much as I would really like to like this bike it ain't happening any time soon. So the question, sport touring? IMO it's a mind set.. so pick your poison and shut up if it doesn't work for you. or better yet like a many of you here, you need at least two bikes maybe three huh? :biggrin: Good question Jaimev, this should be a good thread if folks can be honest with themselves.

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

I know it has been said before, but give us a 1000cc VFR with comfortable ergos, USD forks, radial brakes, fully adjustable suspension, built in luggage attachments, good range, modern sport styling, keep the weight reasonable, and I will plunk down the cash. Also I love my 6th gen, but keep the Vtec and tranny tricks for the cars.

 

Please note that this thread was not started to bash the VFR1200. After seeing it yesterday at the Long Beach Moto show, I've fallen in love with it. It is smaller and sportier than I thought and very similar in ergos and balance to my 5th gen (at least from getting a quick chance to sit on it). Of course, not having ridden it or seeing how the motor behaved, I can't give my final judgement.

Anyway, this thread was started because I was basically thinking aloud about the shortage of bikes like the VFR/ST4/ZX-11 and others from the past. Sport bikes used to be larger, more comfortable, and more suitable for daily riding and longer trips; not touring, but at least more of a range than the current crop of sport bikes. Now, sport bikes are race bikes used on the streets. The suspensions, ergos, geometry, etc., are more suited for the track than the street (as Joey pointed out). Weren't the early R1s, CBRs, Ninjas, and GSXRs less race-focused than the current ones. I haven't ridden many, but when I see them parked or being ridden they remind me of my 5th gen, especially the Ninjas. Maybe the market for these bikes isn't that large, and maybe it's because of ignorance manifested by the desire to have a big liter race bike. Regardless, we are left with few options other than our VFRs if we want to stay in this class of bikes. I agree, the ST1300 is a touring bike, IMO, and so are the FJR and the Connie. So, in the end, other than our VFRs, if you want a bike with clipons, fairings, sporty ergos, sporty design, etc., we either have to go with the RRs or the sport/TOURERS.

 

Not sure if any of those jabs were directed at me, but since you praised my question at the end of your post, I think not.

Anyway, I agree, RVFR, the fact that I get uncomfortable on my bike is my fault and not the bike's. But that was not the question or the tone of the first post. I love my VFR and will keep it till it dies, then I'll get another motor for it, and so on. This is about the shortage of bikes of this type. Bikes have become more narrow in their focus than they used to be. For me, the VFR is like a general practitioner while the CBR1000RR is like a surgeon. While the gen prac. is good at many things medicine, and is probably very capable of performing surgery, the surgeon specialized in surgery. The same goes for the VFR: although it attackes the curves with great ability, the CBR was designed for this. But this general nature that the VFR possesses is what draws us to it.

This isn't about state of mind. Yes, a 1098R can be ridden daily and you could ride to Canada if you'd like, but it is not more comfortable than the VFR, which is not as comfortable as a Connie (for this purpose). Every bike has its strength, but why arent there more generalists out there. I was reminded of this at the Long Beach show.

 

I read that many here have MBS, at least many of the symptoms, but lack having the acute, although advanced stage of the illness. { Having more than one bike. }
I understand that there is no cure, only treatment of symptoms. I suffer with you, my brothers! When the '06 is paid off, I plan to commit myself, and my resources, to enlarging my stable, and easing my pain. It is the only pathology within reason.

Mac

 

After rereading my initial post, I can see that it doesn't exactly convey the message I was trying to get across.

So, here goes one last attempt:

Why are there so few bikes like the VFR? I'd think that there is a big market for this kind of bike: the generalist, good at everything, comfortable, sporty, refined, yada, yada. But there aren't any. If, hypothetically, I were to total my bike and could not find another 5th gen (or even a 3rd or 4th gen, for that matter - no 6th gen for me), and since I can't afford the 7th gen, what would be my options for a bike of this type? None. That's all I'm trying to get at. I'm not talking about additional bikes or better bikes, I'm saying there is not alternative to the VFR, not that I'd buy one if it existed. A few years ago, consumers had more options for bikes in this class. The ST4 and the ZX-11 are sick ass bikes that serve a very similar purpose to the VFR.

Sorry for jabbering on, just wanted to clarify my post.

 

I think the short answer is that there is little interest in a VFR-type motorcycle by the motorcyclist population at large. And I agree that there really isn't a comparable replacement, other than possibly a Triumph Sprint ST. I test rode one, and other than the 3 cylinder, ummm, cadence?, it did feel somewhat similar.

 

It is kinda of a big hole in the US market. If you want a high proformance bike you are kinda stuck with the hunched over race replicas. That or go go to a full blown bagger and it more often than not handles like a cement truck. I'm a big fan of my Yam FZ1. Changed the bars and added soft luggage and I realy like the bike. Some guys have loved the CBR1100 Blackbird with heli bars and hardbags. Finding turn key SPORT-tourer is kind of a unicorn.

 

I guess that's the case, or else they'd be producing them; after all, they will make it if we want it.

Yep, the blackbird is kind of an option, but that's a big mama, isn't it? I just think it's funny that Ducati discontinued the ST4 in 2006 and began making the Multistrada. That bike is truly confused. It's not a dual sport, nor a sport bike, or that comfortable for long travels, yet they keep on making it and have even updated it for 2010. But I guess someone's buying it because they wouldn't be making them if they weren't selling...I think. Well, no more ranting for me! Thanks for putting up with my rambling.

 

The ST category always has been a niche market and has gotten more so over the years as the standard, one size/style fits-all UJM evolved into distinct bloodlines, i.e. race replicas, cruisers, long-distance tourers. Given the low sales volume and the poor economy, we are lucky they even give us any product for our sub-category.

Regardless, as a market demo (early to late middle age non-cruiser riders) , there are enough of us that the OEMs will continue to offer a limited selection of sportbikes with slightly more humane ergos, wind protection, and added weight (beefier frame for handling hard luggage).

Semantics aside, I love the technical proficiency of my '04 and I know overall it is a much better bike but I can just sit and stare at my red '96 seemingly for hours...

 

Here is an option if you dare the B word...

YouTube - 2008 Middleweight Sport-Touring Shootout BMW F800ST vs Honda VFR800 Interceptor - Motorcycle Review

 

Is there any truth to the rumor that the Honda stepthroughs will be punched out to 125cc making them a sport-touring scooter?