Tank Rust? Any concensus on best fix?

I was hot to ride an 82 Magna V45 and I got some help with compression and Marvel Mystery Oil/Seafoam treatment of a 13 year garaged cycle. But when I had overcome all obstacles in the end it appears that I scuttled getting to ride the bike because of rust in the "tanks". I had the bike running and starting well enough while I used my aux gas tank. As soon as I put the main tank, side covers and seat back on it took about 10 minutes of running, while I tried to adjust the idle screws, before the motor stopped.

I had put about 1 gal of premium in the main tank and was happy to hear the electric pump making delivery of fuel. I had one of those cheap in line fuel filters common to VW type one engines of the 60's in the fuel line and I have to admit the fuel did have a distinct reddish color. When I went for fuel later I noticed that premium was what I would describe as "clear" in color from my local BP station.

So, I have a rusty tank. I have not had time to decide if the rust caused the bike to stop running. But I do need to clean out the tank. I have gone to the Mechanics Garage and put in searches for tank cleaning. The result seem to be that Kreem is not recommended or only recommended by one or two diehards who swear by it. Then there is a product made by Caswell that gets the nod from a vocal crowd. And there is one other product that is called something like IOP5 or some such alphanumeric name and it has its supporters. But I wonder if I need any of these products in the first place?

My tank is rusted because it sat in a garage for 13 years of heat and cold cycles and managed to get a nice coat of surface rust here in SoCal. I don't think I have any pin holes, etc. So I don't need a product that is meant to seal pin holes. I don't understand why I need to coat the inside of the tank in the first place? Are new tanks treated to a coating? Doesn't the world drive around with partially rusty tanks for decades and never have to worry over pin holes or even rust. I realize that from time to time a vehicle will have a carb fail because of rust. But the owner gets a carb rebuild and they keep driving with the same source of rust still in their tank?

The tank coating issue is only part of the problem. There is a separate issue regarding the mechanical cleaning of the tank itself. Muriatic Acid (actually dilute Sulfuric Acid) is suggested and even supplied as part of the tank cleaning kit in one instance. WD40 (light oil like Marvel Mystery oil or Seafoam) has also been suggested So for $5.00 I can buy a gallon of Muriatic acid from my local hardware store. This stuff is meant to be used to adjust the ph of swimming pool water. So what strength of muriatic acid am I supposed to use to strip off the rust? And if not Muriatic Acid what subsitute? Second is the use of a mechanical scuffing agent. I've read to use 3/8 nuts, a pound of small sharp metal objects, aquarium gravel, a length of drive chain and other suggestions. I have to believe that the stuff you put in the tank to scour down the tank inner wall should be light and small so that it does not dent the tank from the inner wall when your are shaking and turning the tank for 20 to 30 minutes. Then I have read to rinse and repeat until the liquid that you have in the tank to aid with the scouring comes out clear or without the reddish tinge.

So when I get the inside of the tank essentially free of surface rust or any other kind of rust, when the liquid comes out unchanged, what do I do? Why can't I just put fuel in and drive in the expectation that the fact of having fuel in the tank and using the bike, sloshing the fuel around in the tank as I ride, will keep the rust out to a sufficient degree to make coating the inside of the tank redundant, like the other old/used cycles that I have and ride?

 

A local rider in my area posted his $5 rust removal technique...

Cheap man's de-rusting a tank How to...

 

thanks for the lead but

I can believe that living in Ottawa, where there is freezing weather and lots of moisture, would result in a problem of water getting into ones gas tank . Here in SoCal I think you have to put the water in the gas tank yourself to get it in there :crazy:. If you did it today (awfully sunny with a chance of forest fires) I bet the water (floats on oil) would evaporate away rather than rust the inside of the tank (running at about 100 degrees surface temp in direct sunlight):thumbsup:
(I suppose that someone from Ottawa would have lots of experience with getting rust out of a gas tank. But I can't figure how to log onto the web site. It asks for a valid web address and then does not provide a place to enter it. I don't know how to log on to read what your reference has to say. But thanks anyway.:smile:

 

IF you can get use of a Safetyclean tank at a dealership or independent repair shop, which pumps and recirculates cleaning solvent, your tank should be well flushed out after 1/2 hour, with some shaking.

The metal in the last tank i coated was so thin i didn't think any acid or etching was advisable, didn't want to loose any more metal.

Next i washed tank with alcohol and let it dry before mixing and applying the Caswell compound. I never tried the POR, so don't know. I like the Caswell epoxy mostly cuz it sealed about 15 rusted -out pinholes at the bottom of my Radian's tank two years ago.

Epoxy sealers seem the best coatings because they are the hardest .

 

Gas Tank Sealer - Better than Kream - KBS Coatings

 

another idea is just to buy a new tank, Magna tanks are $40-60 on the fleabay. by the time you invest in chemicals and your labor, may be easier to just buy a new one and move on.

 

I have used Kreeme several times with successful results, in many situations, including for holes in plastic tanks to resolving rust issues.

My first (and previous bike) came with a very very VERY rusty tank from sitting outside for two years. It was downright nasty and I'd never seen a tank so bad on the inside. Cleaning it was a task but in the end I was glad I did it.

For starters I bought some Kreem, a small thing of copper coated BB's (200 or so), a few gallons of Kerosene, and some rubber stoppers to fit the top and bottom of the tank. Drain the tank, put all the BB's in, and pour a quart or two of Kerosene in. Cap it off on both ends and start shaking and rolling the tank. Every so often take one of the stoppers out and drain the nasty Kerosene and replace with fresh. Do this several times until it starts coming out relatively clean.

Once it starts coming out clean, do the same with gas instead of Kerosene. Once its coming out almost spotless, drain it and get all the BB's out. This can be a pain but use a magnet and you will eventually get them all. Give the tank another quick flushes with gas and let it dry several hours or overnight if you can. Then use the Kreem on the inside of the tank. You will probably need at least one bottle. My 3 gallon tank on the Shadow took the whole thing.

Once its all done you're tank wont rust again.

DO NOT use the muriatic acid if you've never worked with it before. Even when highly dilluted it can eat through metal rather quickly so if you've not used it before you can ruin the tank very very fast.

Regarding why you can't just use it once you get it clean instead of using something to coat it... thats a personal risk/chance/opinion. Once metal starts to rust, its hard to keep it from doing it again unless you protect it with something. Even when cleaning it you can't get it 100% clean... and that existing oxidation will continue to promote more oxidation. Normal, regular, year-round use should keep it clean for the most part... However if it gets stored for the winter or sits for a few months... chances are you are going to get some rust starting to form in there. Putting a coating on it will keep it from happening.

Go for the peace of mind and get it over with. Clean it... coat it... and be done with it.

Just food for thought. Make sure that you either clean or replace all of the fuel lines as well. I neglected to do this with my Shadow and it pissed me off. I spent several days cleaning everything up... rebuilding carbs and synching/setting them.. the tank, and numerous other things. Everything ran so freaking great for about two months and then all of a sudden I started having idle/low RPM problems. I took the carbs apart and found some rust clogging the jets. The only place it could have come from was the lines as everything else was absolutely spotless when it went back together... new filters (which were spotless after the carbs started giving me issues). I took the lines off and looked down them with a flashlight and they were coated with rust on the inside. Clean them or replace them and save yourself the headache down the road.

 

Most rust comes from condensation within the tank. Heat and cold cycles. Remember your tank is above the engine, so when you park it after a ride the fuel gets warm. It then cools quite a bit later. If your tank is low on fuel moisture condenses on the inside of the tank. This is not a problem during everyday use. It is a big problem during storage. Always store your bike Full of fuel. Less airspace for condensation plus gas touching all of the inside surfaces will keep it from rusting.

 

There is a product called "Rusteco" that is the bomb and isn't a bastard to use like the Caswell product.

Goggle it and you'll see. If you don't have pinholes, I'd use the Rusteco.

BZ

 

I'm surprised that some of you can't open the link. I can see it without being logged in. Here is the article:

Cheap man's de-rusting a tank How to...

 

WOW, LOL, and Thanks to all

Uberchuckie my hats off to you:hi2:that Ottawa guy:smow: had a great presentation and great pictures too. I want to try the electric method just for the fun of it:biggrin:. Everyone else who added their 2 cents were great as well. I want to thank MEATLOAF for a thourough explication that covered all my questions. I especially want to note the idea of using BB's and the warning about Muriatic Acid being too strong and removing too much metal. I want to thank Maggot for his great answer about storing the bike with the tank full to limit the area for condensation inside the tank. I want to thank BETARACE, SQUIRRELMAN, and others for their partisan support of various tank treatments like KBS, Caswell, Kreem, and the rest:fencing:. I still dont think my 82 Magna has any holes. There was a last minute suggestion to use a product that was not going to remove metal that I will look into. I am going to try the electric method first and then I'll peer intothe tank in a dark room with one bright light source to see if I can see any pin holes. This is the kind of problem where one of those fiber optic probes would come in handy for inspecting the insides of the tank. Remember that a Magna has two tanks (main and reserve) so I may have to use different means to repair each of them. I want to thank Meatloaf for the timely warning to replace all of the hoses or end up with rust in the idle passages like he did. I am guessing that is why the bike stopped running when I put my faith in the line filter to keep my carbs from being clogged in the first place. Again Thanks to all of you, DKC:thumbsup: I'll write a followup once I finish the de rusting of the tanks and get the ancient VF :vtr2n the road again.
DKC

 

Bubba Zanetti's lead to RUSTECO is worth a look!

The last person to comment on the rust problem was Bubba Zanetti. He recommended I look into a product called RUSTECO. It looks and sounds sweet. They have an article cut from the magazine "MOTORCYCLE Cruiser" that describes the product and the process. Its worth looking into. The product is made out of citrus based chemicals and is biodegradable. Its made in Long Beach where its used in marine applications. RUSTECO sells at the Pomona Antique/sports/collector car Swapmeet, a big car and with some cycles related Swap Meet held seven times a year in Pomona. The next one is on Oct 18th.

If the article on line can be believed the Rusteco product will do everything including washing your back and a pedicure without harming the paint on the tank. They will dip your tank for 48 hours and clean it out ready for installation starting at $55 for a small gas tank and going up to over a $100 for a big road (5 gal) monster tank. They don't recommend using tank liner kits. They charge extra to remove the liner if it was installed. They sell the product in a kit for $38 if you want to do it yourself. If you go to the Swapmeet to buy it they say that they will sell you the kit at a discount. They claim that you can reuse the liquid about 8 to 10 times before it looses its ability to strip off rust. Once the citrus based chemicals are neutralized you can spread it on your garden as a fertilizer. Sounds too good to be true. But I'll be at the next Pomona Swap meet buying some:biggrin:.
DKC

 

I used a tank sealer on mine... the rust in my tank had actually formed stalactites, so we chiseled out the loose parts, sloshed some BB's around to knock crap loose, and then poured in a sealer... Gave that tank 3 coats... I wanna say the brand was Por-15, or somethin' like that... been almost a year since we did that, and my baby hasn't had a single issue with debris or rust in filters...

 

The liners vs the cleaners

Thanks to PyroMcnoob for introducing "POR (paint on rust)-15" to the discussion. It gets added in with "Kream" and "Gas Tank Sealer by KBS coatings". In "googleing" the "Rusteco" product (a citrus based cleaner) I got back a number of similar rust removing products with differerent names from different parts of the country(Evapo-rust, Metalrescue, etc.). There seem to be two camps regarding tank rust. First, the mechanical removal, (BB's, nuts and bolts, fish tank gravel,lengths of chain, et. al.) and lining contingent, which seems to include some sort of etching with acid to create a base surface for the epoxy based liner coating to adhere to; and Second, cleaning the surface rust off, which includes the Citrus cleaners and Electrolitic rust removal. All of these methods have been described in the thread, especially the electrical rust removal technique. The Citrus cleaners are not supposed to harm paint so they are perfect for tank dipping.

The real problem is that water is denser than gasoline (oil) and it migrates into the low points of the tank. Given time and available oxygen, it rusts these vulnerable places in the tank to paper thinness and eventually pin holes break through the metal and gasoline leaks occur. The most likely source of water is condensation of water vapor inside the tank, although it is possible that the refiners introduce water into the gasoline or that the gas station's in ground tanks are contaminated with rain and snow water, which gets pumped into your tank from time to time.

Rust inside gas tanks is a problem everywhere, but wetter and colder climates get the worst of it. If you live in a sunny, mostly warm to hot climate, the condensation problem is minor. If you keep your tank filled and drive the bike around with a filled tank then its improbable that you will suffer rust out. If you store the bike with a full tank for a year or less than you are probably not going to have any problems. If you live in a wetter climate then some sort of method of drying out the water that gets in the tank is obligatory.

If you store the bike for thirteen years with an empty tank, even in SoCal or So. Arizona, you are probably going to have surface rust inside the tank (unless you stored the bike in a climate controlled (temp and humidity) space). On the other hand if you store the bike with a full tank for 13 years you will have a big brown mess inside the tank when you finally get around to running the bike again (unless you drain and refill the tank every couple of years). And, as Maggot pointed out, you want to keep the surface area that is not in contact with the gasoline inside the tank to a minimum while the bike is being stored.

If you store the cycle for 13 years in a drafty old garage without any gas in the tank will you get rust out? If you live somewhere where it's very humid (heavy dew on the car windshield and cycle seat every morning) you probably will. If it's in a hot dry climate it probably won't. That's why I'm betting that my tank only needs to be cleaned. I am the cycle's second owner. The bike was originally purchased in SoCal and stayed in SoCal, except for a long trip or two, its entire life. After the tank is cleaned, using either the electrical strip or citris based chemical strip, I'll be able to see if the tank has any pin holes. I doubt that it will. If it does not I'll make sure it's dry and clean before I put fuel in it again and remember to keep it filled up if I intend to store it for any extended period of time. Otherwise, I 'll drive it with it's original steel tank innerd's unlined and fill the tank to the rim regularly as I ride.

DKC

 

:thumbsup: +1 for doin' the research

I used the Por-15 cuz I was broke needed a way to get the bike roadworthy quickly... given more time and higher budget, I prolly would've had my tank acid-washed... but hey, in my defense the liner I used has given my bike new life :biggrin: to each his own

 

I went the electrolysis method as well on my VF500F tank.

Detailed here:

http://vfrworld.com/forums/first-se...ience-project-removing-rust-electrolysis.html

It was kinda fun, especially being a science nerd. Fairly easy as well. Afterward coated it with the Caswell product and everything is great.

 

It seems like everyone is chiming in here with experiences with tanks, so here's mine:

I coated the tank on my 1982 Yamaha XS400R with Kreem. The kit included the 3-steps - cleaner, acid etcher, and coating. It was pretty easy to do, I imagine that it would have been a lot easier if the tank wasn't looking like Swiss cheese.

I sold the bike less than a year after the coating, so I can't speak to the durability of this product. However, it was pretty easy to do, and it filled in a LOT of pinholes in this impossible-to-replace tank. I didn't have a leak for about 1,000 miles after the coating, so it must have held.

I will also speak to the awesomeness of the POR-15 products. Their standard POR-15 black paint is ridiculously awesome - it paints on with a brush, and lays down smooth. Once dry it's almost bulletproof, and absolutely glossy. If I were to do another tank, it would be with this stuff.

The electrolytic rust removal works really well, too - my dad does it all the time on clock parts (he fixes clocks for a living), and the 200 year old parts look new when he's done. It also works to remove corrosion on non-ferrous metals as well.

 

Going the electrolytic rust removal route

OK guys and gals(?). I have been trying to get some "washing soda". You will maybe remember UberChuckie's reference to a local Ottawa boy who took pictures of the electrolytic method applied to his rust bucket tank. The first ingredient (besides the rusted tank) is a little item that came in a blue box with the Arm & Hammer logo on it. The stuff is called "Super Washing Soda" and it turns out that it's Sodium Carbonate. Try to find it in Riverside CA and you are probably going to get what I got, box cars/nada/zilch/zero. No such product for sale in sunny SoCal. It's like it's a component for making a home made bomb and the Dept. of Homeland Security has taken it off the shelves for our protection:spy:. Soooo, next Google Arm&Hammer, get the number for consumer relations (800-781-7529) . Call them up. They will ship you some at $4.50 for a 55oz (10% off retail) box, minumum three boxes for free shipping. "No, I said, I want to buy it today." Can't help you, she said", But I'll give you a deal and ship you two boxes at regular price and swallow the shipping charge." I wanted to tell she could swallow something else. Ten days later I could expect a yellow package in the mail after the FBI had checked me out and OK'd sending me the stuff. I said I wasn't interested, I wanted the stuff ASAP. Ran around Riverside looking for "washing soda" with no luck. :frown:

Back to the internet. Arm & Hammer has an 'on line ad' for "Super Washing Soda". If you read through it there is a question and answer page that you can access and there, one of the questions is "what is the difference between A&H washing soda and A&H baking soda? Glad you asked that simpleton. A&H washing soda is 100% pure as the driven snow 'sodium carbonate', while A&H baking soda is 100% pure as the driven snow 'sodium bicarbonate', and never the twain shall meet. And so, buster, with that answer are you ready to buy two 55 oz. boxes of "Super Washing Soda". You might as well, A&H have cornered the market on it and you won't find it any other way than to buy it from us and wait for 10 days to get delivery. Sorry, but I'm not convinced that I can't find it myself.

First I tried calling chemical supply stores in the Yellow pages. Dead end in Riverside, never known as one of the chemistry capitals of the country (its just too dry here). Google 'sodium carbonate' or 'washing soda' and you find Wikipedia stepping up to save the day. What is it: it's used to make glass and it's used to soften water. And if you keep reading it has the special property of all salts that when dissolved in water it makes the water more electrically conductive. Ah Ha! Now we are getting somewhere. thats why I need to find Sodium Carbonate. But I still can't find a vendor for Sodium Carbonate. I am still going to have to wait for 10 days to get delivery.:mmph: But I keep poking around the Net and I eventually go to a web site that is some busy body Grandma who doles out advice on home cleaning and cleaning products.

The site is for women who want to know how to clean their difficult problem dirt. It also caters to women who are fed up paying soap makers through the nose for what they made themselves on the frontier. Ladies who make their own laundry soap, that kind of near extinction housewife. And while digging through one of these letters comes this pissed off housefrau :ballchain: who can't find 'washing soda' on the shelf of her supermarket anymore. So she rages on for a sentence or two and finally "Asks Annie" if it is true that the stuff they put in swimming pools (called soda ash) to balance over acidity is the same stuff they put in a 55 oz boxes and sell as $5.50 "super washing soda".:vader: Annie's answer is YES, and she tells you to wear your rubber gloves when you use it because it is "caustic".

"CAUSTIC"? As in "Caustic Cleaning Tank"?:thumbsup: Every machine shop and good sized garage had one when I was growing up, now outlawed as a nuisance and a source of pollution. Bring your greasy engine block and differential in and plunk it down in the tank, light up the burner and leave it in there overnight and the next day it came out steaming hot and stripped clean!!! Hell yes. I've got a caustic tank in my washing machine. Greasy clothes, full of oil and muck, come out smelling sweet when I wash them in 'washing soda'!

And that boys and girls is the story for today. DKC has to go to his pool supply store now to get some chemical supplies for his in home caustic tank. I'll see you same time and same station for the continuing story of how DKC washed his rust and cares away. :shower: Bye Bye. :biggrin::wave:

 

Moyers Tank repair in Pittsburg does a great job but it's a $300 process and requires you to paint the tank afterwards.

 

I'm not sure if this helps but a product called Red-kote (sp) sealer was used on mine when it was all said and done. Mine was in bad shape and once we dug in we had found someone had fixed it before using bondo. That was blown off and re-leading was done along the bottom because the tank ended up with holes. I had to sand (grind) it all down again, it was a nightmare. Had it painted etc. but at the end the Red-kote was used...so far so good. I did some research and it was the one I went with.