shop tryin to rip me off !!86 500

Discussion in '1st & 2nd Generation 1983-1989' started by thermostate, Aug 26, 2009.

  1. slowbird

    slowbird Member

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    Still no update from the OP?
     
  2. Pcohen

    Pcohen New Member

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    Yea I agree with you on that.

    From my point of view; charging someone 1.2 hours for a 30min job is dishonest. Even if a book says it was supposed to take 1.2 hours it still only took 30min; so I feel thats what should be charged. Needless to say; if i opened up a shop it would probably go out of business pretty quick :biggrin:
     
  3. jeff8478

    jeff8478 New Member

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    To me, it's a question of what was approved.
     
  4. squirrelman

    squirrelman Member

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    AND another thing: always ask that any parts which they replace be returned to you.

    I'm suspicious of the 4 float needle sets they say you needed.

    For me, to do a thorough job, it may take 3-4 hours minimum to inspect, strip, clean, assemble, and adjust carbs.....more if they're really, really dirty.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2010
  5. jporter12

    jporter12 New Member

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    I don't know that i's go as far as dishonest. It levels the playing field though. Everyone (shop, and tech) makes the same amount as the next shop or tech. for a particular job. This is one reason that many shops have gotten away from actually putting the labor on the bill as a number of hours, and just putting a dollar amount. Again, if asked, we usually tell them what the labor guide says it should take.

    It's a way to encourage the guy to get your vehicle done and back to you, and as for doing it right, if it's not right, many shops make the tech do it again for nothing, or at least for less pay.

    Another way to look at it is that the guy is getting a bonus for doing well, and being paid for his experience. You can't put a price on experience, and this is just one way for a guy to get something back. I know most jobs I did for the first couple years, I didn't do much faster than the published time. As I've gained experience, I can do most jobs faster, allowing me to do more jobs in a given time period.

    Well, I'm starting to ramble on now....... LOL
     
  6. thermostate

    thermostate New Member

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    update

    So I went in on tuesday and talk with the owners wife and she said they adjusted it.So I got the bill it was closer to what I expected 1155 for it all.they double charged me on the gasket sets 170 right there. I figured thats what I would have to pay that to get it road worthy. runs great now!!!!
     
  7. Eddie W

    Eddie W New Member

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    I'm glad to hear that they made it right.
     
  8. DKC'sVFR

    DKC'sVFR New Member

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    double billing

    Its an interesting thread you have here and I'm going to chime in. First, Squirrelman and Krusty are the voices of reason here. Don't go condemning the guy for making a living. If you can't pay the freight than you need to start turning the wrenches yourself.

    Second, rebuilding a set of carbs for a VF is not something you do in an hour and one half. I know that I have spent over a day trying to make sure I get the diaphram seals back on without a fold or a short cut that leaves the diaphram open.

    As for the double charge for the carb parts, he is only selling you the parts for as expensive a price as he can justify. You can buy a complete carb rebuild set with a needle and seat included with the rubber parts, or you can buy the rubber parts seperate and the needle and seat seperate and charge through the nose for both of them seperately and still be able to justify the purchase. Who's to know if the shop buys whole kits from Canada that were made in Japan (notice that I did not say they were OEM) for $12 or less from the Japanese after market parts makers that are just as good if not the same as the OEM. Then they turn around and sell you the same parts, except broken down like the dealer OEM parts are at OEM prices. It's a long time ploy of any repair shop. And any repair shop that doesn't do it is just asking to go out of business. Its the reason you need to start doing your own repairs.

    I think there was an incisive breakdown of the clutch repair somewhere else in this thread. There again, if you do the work yourself and you hunt and peck around for good deals on parts, you won't have to cry about getting strangled as your mechanic trys to get into your wallet.

    As for the hours he spent on your bike, there is flat rate and then there is real time. Flat rate is for dealerships that have plenty of work, warranty as well as assembly and prep of new bike sales. Dealerships have regular customers but they maintain their trained staff on the Dealership/manufactures dime. The flat rate book is a creation of the dealerships and for the dealerships so they can give their showroom customers a firm price and screw their employees (mechanics) if they can't keep up with manufacturer warranty payment policy.

    Real time is the rate that is posted on the wall of your one or two man garage. Its a flexible rate that has to do with the weather and how motivated the mechanic was when he made out your bill. Its also a guage of how much he values you as his friend. There is no management looking over the guys shoulder with a stop watch to see how long each job takes. The mechanic is also the receptionist, the salesman, the clerk, the accountant and the bill payer. Did you happen along on the day when the rent was due? Too bad for you. Most small guy garages actually spend more time fixing your bike than the Flat Rate manual says they are allowed. That's why they are independent garages, because they won't put up with the dealerships flat rate crap. I would also venture to say that most independent garages dedicate more hours to large and complicated jobs than they actually charge for because they know that reality is somewhere between flat rate time and real time cost. You also have to notice that Dealerships usually don't take older model bikes in as work. The cost of fixing an older bike, with all its inherent problems due to age, is too costly from a warrantee point of view. If they accept responsibility for the work and some other thing goes wrong they are often beset with all sorts of warrantee problems, not the least of which is the mother of the boy who they did the favor for in the first place. For some reason this problem is not so overwhelming to independent garages. The ones who CAN, regardless of time constraints, DO and they survive. Those garages who CAN'T end up closed down regardless of time constraints. Better a mechanic who takes the time to make sure that the diaphrams are in place and operating properly than a mechanic who beat the clock any day.

    Want to know more about that independent mechanic? I recommend reading a recent book in bookstore now: "SHOP CLASS AS SOUL CRAFT". You might find it facinating if you are considering fixing your own motorcycle. It even includes a facinating annecdote about repairing an old V45 or V65 and all the consequences that befell the author-mechanic in taking on the job. :smile:
     
  9. DKC'sVFR

    DKC'sVFR New Member

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    double billing

    Its an interesting thread you have here and I'm going to chime in. First, squirrelman and krusty are the voices of reason here. Don't go condemning the guy for making a living. If you can't pay the freight than you need to start turning the wrenches yourself.

    Second, rebuilding a set of Carbs for a VF is not something you do in an hour and one half. I know that I have spent over a day trying to make sure I get the diaphram seals back on without a fold or a short cut that leaves the diaphram open.

    As for the double charge for the carb parts, he is only selling you the parts for as expensive a price as he can justify. You can buy a complete carb rebuild set with a needle and seat included with the rubber parts, or you can buy the rubber parts seperate and the needle and seat seperate and charge through the nose for both of them and still be able to justify the purchase. Who's to know if the shop buys whole kits from Canada made in Japan (notice that I did not say they were OEM) for $12 from the Japanese after market parts makers that are just as good if not the same as the OEM. Then they turn around and sell you the same parts, except broken down like the dealer OEM parts are at OEM prices. It's a long time ploy of any repair shop. And any repair shop that doesn't do it is just asking to go out of business. Its the reason you need to start doing your own repairs.

    I think there was an incisive breakdown of the clutch repair somewhere else in this thread. There again, if you do the work yourself and you hunt and peck around for good deals on parts, you won't have to cry about getting strangled as your mechanic trys to get into your wallet.

    As for the hours he spent on your bike, there is flat rate and then there is real time. Flat rate is for dealerships that have plenty of work, warranty as well as assembly and prep of new bike sales. Dealerships have regular customers but they maintain their trained staff on the Dealership/manufactures dime. The flat rate book is a creation of the dealerships and for the dealerships so they can give their showroom customers a firm price and screw their employees (mechanics) if they can't keep up with manufacturer warranty payment policy.

    Real time is the rate that is posted on the wall of your one or two man garage. Its a flexible rate that has to do with the weather and how motivated the mechanic was when he made out your bill. There is no management looking over the guys shoulder with a stop watch to see how long each job takes. The mechanic is also the receptionist, the salesman, the clerk, the accountant and the bill payer. Did you happen along on the day when the rent was due, too bad for you? Most small guy garages actually spend more time fixing your bike than the Flat Rate manual says they are allowed. Thats why they are independent garages, because they won't put up with the dealerships flat rate crap. I would also venture to say that most independent garages dedicate more hours to large and complicated jobs than they actually charge for because they know that reality is somewhere between flat rate time and real time cost. You also have to notice that Dealerships usually don't take older model bikes in as work. The cost of fixing an older bike, with all its inherent problems due to age, is too costly from a warrantee point of view. If they accept responsibility for the work and some other thing goes wrong they are often beset with all sorts of warrantee problems, not the least of which is the mother of the boys who they did the favor for in the first place. For some reason this problem is not so overwhelming to independent garages. The ones who can do survive and those who can't end up closed down.

    Want to know more about that independent mechanic? I recommend reading a recent book in bookstore now: "SHOP CLASS AS SOUL CRAFT". You might find it facinating if you are considering fixing your own motorcycle. It even includes a facinating annecdote about repairing an old V45 or V65 and all teh consequences that befell the author mechanic in taking on the job. :smile:
     
  10. donald branscom

    donald branscom New Member

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    You do HAVE A RIGHT to ask what the additional charge is for.
    No harm in that.
    Just ask and see what they say. Then after they tell you or show the work they did , THEN decide if you think it is fair.
    Some people are VERY poor communicators.
    You have to pull teeth to et the information needed.

    Also they said $850 for the clutch plates.
    Did you call any other shops to compare prices for that job?

    ALWAYS call at least 3 shops just to find out if one shop is way out of line on prices.
    It is YOUR MONEY and it is hard to get. Make sure you have a clear agreement IN writing if possible.
     
  11. donald branscom

    donald branscom New Member

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    WELL PUT. Way to go!!
     
  12. crustyrider

    crustyrider New Member

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    glad you got it straightened out....

    and glad to hear the bike is running as well
     
  13. thermostate

    thermostate New Member

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    Wow I forgot all about this post. I agree with all of you. I have had the bike for a while now have not ridin it due to weather but it is still running great when I start it up. I still have a good relationship with the shop owner ,I didnt want to do the work myself cause at the time I had a job that didnt give me time to work on it and I was also not sure I could do the work with out screwing up something major as I am very unorganized.thanks for all the help!
     
  14. reg71

    reg71 Poser Staff Member

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    I realize I am coming in way late on this, but I already typed this whole summary before I looked at the date so I'm not deleting it all dammit! Maybe someone will come later on and appreciate all my time and effort... :biggrin:

    Absolutely. No matter how many times I see you tell people this, I could not agree more.

    Mine too, now put them back... no wait, I don't know where your hands have been...

    Yeah, if you know him, he shouldn't be offended if you approach him non-threateningly. If he is a professional he will understand your concerns.

    True, but DAMN, Toe! I understand what you are saying, but that was a big price quote jump...

    Agreed. I am afraid 'What we have here...is a failure to communicate...' You have a few options as far as I can tell:

    1. Go to the shop and raise royal hell about the quote.
    2. Try to calmly and rationally talk to the owner and explain your concerns.
    3. Bite the bullet and count it as an expensive lesson.

    And hopefully, #4, buy yourself a Honda repair manual and start doing maintenance. I'm telling you, I am no mechanical mastermind, but most of those things you paid to have done are EASY to do yourself. And, $1300 buys a lot of parts and tools. You wouldn't have been any worse off on cost if you had tried and botched the job then took it to a shop.
     
  15. 86INTERCEPTOR500@NCSU

    86INTERCEPTOR500@NCSU New Member

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    Where can I find a free one for a 86 vf500??? anyone got any clue? I cant seem to find one that dosnt cost me $40.

    And wow $1100+ for parts and labor?? I paid less than half of that for my 86 vf500 and have put about $150 bucks in it ( did all the work myself) and it runs like new.
     
  16. Dukiedook

    Dukiedook New Member

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    Unfortunately this is all stuff you could have done yourself for about $400 in parts on the high end.

    Cleaning the carbs and the clutch plates would have been the hardest things to do and they are not that tough.

    I have heard plenty of horror stories of people getting their carbs "professionally cleaned" by some shops.
     
  17. rc24rc51

    rc24rc51 New Member

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    The 2 gasket sets in question in my opinion 1 would be the O-ring kit, the other would be float bowl gaskets. In addition you paid for 4 needle valves. Were those carbs leaking fuel from the overflow? You not only paid for a carb clean but for a complete rebuild. I don't know of any shop that would charge less than 3-4hrs for a V4 carb clean. At any rate those carbs would have to have been really bad to require all those parts. And there's a huge difference in price when the gaskets are OEM Honda or K&L.
     
  18. donald branscom

    donald branscom New Member

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    I agree especially about the "professionally cleaned" part.
    Motorcycle carbs are NOT LIKE a car.
    The only thing that get dirty is the outside of the carb.
    The float bowl could have something in it but just dump the float bowl out. No need to take the carb completely apart.
    If you have a screen on the tank valve and a filter before the carbs then the only dirt is going to have to be extremely fine to get through.
    Also MANY people COMPLETELY take a carb apart and there is NO reason for it.
    Then it won't run right and they do not know why.
    The reason is that some parts are set at the factory and trying to get that info and settings is IMPOSSIBLE.
    It is not in the shop manual.
    The float needle is the most important functioning part of the carburator.
    If the carb overflows it is the float needle 99% of the time. It is a bad float needle OR the float got stuck.
    NEVER ADJUST a float. Leave it alone.
     
  19. rc24rc51

    rc24rc51 New Member

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    Are you kidding me?? Not to be a jerk, but a rusting fuel tank will deposit very fine sediment into the fuel system. Where does it end up? Gasoline that's gone bad slowly turns to varnish in your fuel system, what does it clog up? THE FREAKING CARBS!! And no amount of draining the float bowls will fix it. A professionally cleaned set of carbs will be completely disassembled And soaked in a VAT OF SPECIAL SOLVENT. That solvent, like carb cleaner will ruin any rubber it comes in contact with. Soaking the carbs in a vat is the right way to do and the only way to be sure they're clean. The specs ARE in the manual. You cant do a proper job without removing the air / fuel mixture screws which are usually preset at the factory and plugged. But they do have to come out regardless cause if they're blocked the bike won't freaking idle! GOT IT??
     
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