Ghost says "Lets learn about R/R's!"

Discussion in 'Mechanics Garage' started by Ghost, Apr 16, 2009.

  1. Ghost

    Ghost New Member

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    I read a lot of posts about people and their R/R's going out, or the wiring getting hot, and or connectors are melting.

    I have personally re-wired an 87 and an 86 VFR from Headlight to Tail light. I will start with a general statement. Honda sucks at applying ground wiring. They have gotten better, and included more redundancies for ground failures, but earlier model bikes got nuffin.

    So! Let’s talk about Rectifiers and Regulators. Or as some of you have all come to learn them as R/R’s.

    What is a R/R?
    Well, a “R/R” is more formally known as a Regulator and Rectifier combo device. This device comes after years of electrical charging and power distribution systems upgrades. It is comprised of two separate units, into one…a Regulator, and a Rectifier. What’s interesting, is that the package has changed, but the function has evolved very little. The R/R job is to receive a voltage and convert it to a useable power for both the motorcycles overall operation, and continued charging of the battery.

    So, what is a Regulator? What does that do?
    The Regulator does exactly what is sounds like…regulates. Regulates what? Well, if you guessed water, you are wrong. Yes, we all know it regulates power. But how? Your motorcycle has a secondary generator attached to the engine.

    Back up Ghost! WTF is this generator you speak of?
    This secondary generator, is the make up of two parts a Stator, and a Rotor. A Stator is stationary. Made up of a steel ring, (like a doughnut), with insulated wire, wrapped around in a certain pattern, and has permanent magnets affixed in specific locations. The Rotor is a steel device in the center of the doughnut shaped stator and has a head which contains a series of cut magnets and more copper insulated wiring. The rotor is attached to your engine. As the engine turns, the rotor turns. And as the magnets pass one another, they generate a field of electricity, that is carried through the wiring. The circuits alternate from one to another, and constantly are double-backing on itself. This motion and generation of electricity in this manner, is called an alternator. Ok, loosing interest. Lets get back to the R/R.

    How does the alternator affect the R/R?
    Your bikes alternator is putting out about 13 to 16V, of alternating current, aka. AC power. Your bike runs on direct current, aka DC power. Because your travel at different speeds, your engine at any given time, will be turning at different RPM’s…as such, the AC voltage is constantly changing. If only we had some device to regulate the power so that it is constant. BINGO! A regulator! YES! Problem solved.

    What about the issue of AC and DC power?
    To convert alternating power to direct current, we need to change legs of power, and rectify it through a series of diodes, capacitors, resistor… ya know what, you really don’t care about this anyway. The Rectifier converts the power from AC to DC. There, Problem solved.

    But how to tell if a R/R goes bad?
    Ah, good question. Before I answer this, we should talk about what happens when its in use. As the engine is turning, and not in idle, you are applying energy, voltage, and heat to all the connections, wires, diodes, etc etc. Heat = bad! Always. Short runs, and frequent stops will allow the heat to build up rather fast, and anything less than 14V isn’t being transferred to the battery. Once a week, or once every two weeks. Lift your seat, or remove the side panel, which ever you have, and just look. If the connectors look black, melted, brown, crispy, exposed, etc. Be smart. Don’t ride it. Get a new one ASAP. You can not put a meter on a R/R and determine that “its close”. They either work, or they don’t. its just that simple.

    So, what happens if I don’t heed your warnings Ghost, and it fails?
    Well, first, go buy a new one. Second. Be prepared to be lucky. Think of the R/R as a toll bridge. If the R/R fails, from heat, and a wire is broken, then the bridge is open. Your battery will not be charged, and the bike will eventually roll to a stop, and turn off. (By the way, odds are, now you need a new battery). If you are oh so unfortunate, and the wires cross, and fuse, or metal in the diode welds to metal, then you have a closed bridge, and totally uncontrolled and unregulated power is sent surging through all your electrical system. Battery, ICM or ECM (brain), bulbs, fuses, other connectors, relays, instrument panel circuit boards, are just a few of the items that can be destroyed from spikes. Now you are paying many hundreds or thousands of coin to get it fixed… (Oh, and if you spike your battery, you need a new one now too.)

    So, why not just put a fan on the R/R to keep it cool?
    Seems logical doesn’t it? Well, its not. Those heat ribs on the side of your R/R are engineered to dissipate some heat, and retain some to keep the unit homogeneously warm. The heat stresses occur more from the connectors, and from the cheap crappy plastic insulation from the wires. All a fan will do is cool the outside of the R/R, and the inside stays dam hot. Now that’s called Heat stress, and is a far worse condition than before.

    What can I do to prevent this?

    Really, its inevitable. But you can make it last longer. If you are really diligent you could possibly never change one. (given of course all of the other factors; no short trips, additional grounding, good PM, etc etc.) Keeping the unit clean, free from road grease / grime, not so frequent stopping, checking wires, ensure wires are routed properly and not made too tight, will also assist in prolonging the life expectancy.

    Very good point! Keeping your connectors and individual contacts clean is key. Part of your “winterizing” of a bike should include, pulling every connector open, and cleaning the plug and jack with cleaner. (be sure not to use alcohol, as alcohol will breakdown chemical chains of polymers and plastic, and can ruin your connectors).

    I know this looks ho-key but I found this quite a long time ago, and it has helped me. Perhaps it will help others too.


    [​IMG]


    Finally, I will end on the Ground circuit I briefly started with. There simply isn’t enough ground on a motorcycle. Not enough redundancy of ground to keep other items from blowing.
    I will say this. If a bikes R/R is not working, where is all the voltage going? If wiring is hot, or plugs are warmer than the engine, and or exceeding the Tg (Glass Transition point of plastic), its an indicator that the resistance of the circuit is not correct. Typically this is an indicator that either neutral, or a negative ground is making intermittent contact, or is not connected at all.

    The below material is NOT my opinion, its reference material from US Patent 46886445. Please feel free to look it up if anyone doesn’t believe me.
    Quote:

    The battery, has only two wires. Red. Positive, and Black…Negative. If the black wire is only about 4 inches and is connected to the frame, and the Red wire is about 6 inches and is only connected to the Starter solenoid/ (fused), how would you suppose the power is fed back to the battery from the R/R? cause its not the Black Negative cable attached to the frame, I assure all of you.

    The power from your R/R is fed through the positive wire, which feeds back through the battery’s Red wire, and subsequently is passing through the starter solenoid just prior to that. The negative is routed through your bikes frame, and the overall ground circuit.

    Anne E. Way, This is Basics 101 about R/R. Take care of it. Inspect it often.

    Love your R/R
    Ghost out
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2009
  2. crustyrider

    crustyrider New Member

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    there you go calling people dumbasses again your picture explpains what is wrong with mine...I've 6 wires coming out of my retifier...the picture shows only 5....guess I gotta cut one off....which one...........which one .................red or yellow! tick.............tock..............tick.....................tock
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2009
  3. Marley Davidson

    Marley Davidson New Member

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    Hey ghost, another usefull post!

    Thanks man! Really usefull!

    The diagram is really cool!
     
  4. Joey_Dude

    Joey_Dude Member

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    Joey says, thanks for the funny and useful explanation! :thumbsup:
     
  5. SLOVFR

    SLOVFR Member

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    You might want to add about maintenance that should be done to help keep the R/R in good shape. Heat comes from resistance and resistance as such is due to the bad connections at both the ground point, battery / starter relay connections and all wire connectors. Once you have poor contact between the connections you will start to build resistance and heat. I think this is the main cause of R/R failures not the R/R itself so much but good information and should be put in the WIKI and sticky. Is the WIKI still up? I better go check...
     
  6. Ghost

    Ghost New Member

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    SLOVFR, very good point, I will add it now.
    Thanks boss!
     
  7. leftcoast

    leftcoast New Member

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    Thanks Ghost.

    Another useful technique to keeping your R/R alive is to carry a spare. So far this has worked very well for me. Especially on longer trips.
     
  8. Paul47

    Paul47 New Member

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    I have read many threads and posts on this subject. Why? Because my new (to me) vfr700 was not charging its battery. In the process I have seen some claims or suppositions that were perhaps a bit questionable, in my opinion. For what its worth, I spent my working life as a computer hardware engineer - yes, more digital than analog, but had enough of the latter to learn a few things.

    BTW, are there schematics available online?

    There was a fad a while back to replace or supplement the stock wires with heavier guage. With one exception, I have to question this. Yeah, there is less resistance, but most times this does not matter.

    If the R/R has voltage sense wires, it simply is unnecessary to go to heavier wires. The sense wires should detect the voltage at the battery (assuming they are connected directly to the battery! :rolleyes: ), and generate a high enough voltage at the R/R to make the battery voltage correct, no matter how small the wires, no matter how many devices (ignition switches, connectors, fuses) are in the path of the wires delivering current to the battery. In fact one might say the whole point of voltage sense wires is to not have to worry (so much) about wire guage and these devices. As long as there is no burning in the device contacts, as long as the current in the wires is low enough not to melt or embrittle the insulation, everything should work fine with the stock wiring.

    If the R/R does not have voltage sense wires, then you have a different situation. In that case the voltage sensing still is done, but it is done inside the regulator, on the high current line. With enough stuff, or small enough wires between the R/R and the battery, a significant difference in voltage can occur. What this will lead to, generally speaking, is too low voltage supplied to the battery and shortened battery life, and even not enough charge in the battery to start the bike. Putting heavy wires between the R/R and the battery makes sense here. I would do it not only on the positive line, but also on the negative line, not depending on the chassis ground. Also, removing extraneous devices helps. One might even consider removing any fuse between the two; fuses must drop voltage too, and they also have connectors that corrode.

    I would not bother with heavier wires between stator and R/R. It's a lot of work with no reward. As long as the insulation on those wires does not melt or become brittle, they are good enough. In fact, if those wires were running warm, and they were replaced by heavier wires, the heat that was formerly coming from them will then be dumped into the R/R! Exactly the opposite of what you want.

    In the heavy current lines, avoid connector use as much as possible. Solder connections are far superior. Connectors are OK in other cases where they have little chance to heat up. Horn for example. Even then, using dielectric grease (or maybe even Noalox as used in home electrical panels) in the connectors seems a good idea. Headlights? I'd consider soldering, if only to get brighter lights.

    There seems some confusion about grounds. Ground merely makes use of the metal frame of the bike as a return path for current, to the negative side of the battery, rather than using a wire. Often it is better to use actual wires, as connections between copper wires and steel frame is just asking for corrosion and voltage drop or even an open circuit. Cleaning these connections with steel wool and using dielectric grease should help.

    In my case I found a burned connector between the stator and the R/R. After reading all these threads, I was looking at horror stories of having to replace the stator, R/R, and who knows what else. When I checked the resistance in the stator windings, it seemed bad. Anyway I thought I'd just try to reconnect and see what happened. I used buttsplice connectors as that was all that was available at the place I was staying (solder would have been better) and guess what? It worked! Ahhh...:smile: Connectors in high current lines are problems waiting to happen. Might even be an example of designed-in obsolescence!

    BTW, the stator wires were just fine, when I cut the cover back away from the connector. Only near the connector was insulation melted, from the connector heat. That proves the wires can handle the current as is.

    Oh, some other items. Someone claimed that heavier loads mean the R/R has less work to do, because less alternator output is shunted to ground. That's only half true. The R/R has two parts, regulator and rectifier. The regulator has less work to do with heavier loads, but the rectifier has to pass more current, and that means more heat dumped into the head sink (a diode has about .6v of voltage drop, and the power is current times voltage drop). Also, heavier loads mean your stator runs hotter, not a good thing. So I'd say, don't add loads gratuitously. You are not helping anything.

    I wonder why motorcycle manufacturers use shunt regulators? There are other types that do not generate such waste heat; see this article:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_regulator

    As to cooling the R/R with a fan, Ghost, cooler is always better. Fans are questionable not because they cause "heat stress" or anything like that, but because they are simply added complication that should be avoided if possible. But they certainly don't hurt the R/R; to the contrary. Otherwise people would not put cooling fans on CPUs!

    It might also be worthwhile to improve the thermal contact between the bike frame and the R/R by using heat sink compound, just like they use in CPU heat sinks. Clean contacts down to bare metal first, I think, and make sure the surfaces are flat and parallel to get the best effect.

    I sure would like to see some schematics...
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2009
  9. Klos87VFR700

    Klos87VFR700 New Member

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    Ghost- what's your opinion on replacing the R/R with a MOSFET R/R from newer bikes. I just got one from a 05+ (I think) zx1000. Haven't wired it in yet, I have to pick up some spades from Radio Shack for the connections, but everything I researched points towards it being a go.

    All R/R's I've seen all have 5 points, 3 from the 3-phase power coming from the stator, and 2 from the Pos/Neg to the battery.

    Let me hear your thoughts, oh wise one.
     
  10. Paul47

    Paul47 New Member

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    Now that I think about this some more, it may be completely true. The power output of the stator probably depends only on rpm, so the current through the rectifier will be the same in either case, but the current shunted to ground by the regulator will be less where there is a heavy load. So a heavy load means a cooler R/R. That's what I think today. :rolleyes:

    Oh, I managed to find schematics after digging through this forum some more.
     
  11. deetben

    deetben New Member

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    Check out this site for a VFRness. It is an add in wire harness for the R/R.

    Wire My Bike

    The site owner is a member of this site and I'm sure he has some info on the discussion boards here also. No time to look for the threads right now. It also has some interesting info on the R/R like on this thread. And I have read a lot of stuff on R/R due to the fact that I have replaced the R/R on every Honda I have owned. I'm on my third R/R on my current 99 VFR. But you know what they say, third times a charm. That and I added the VFRness to the equation this time. So far so good. Plus I used a 00/01 R/R with the voltage sensor. Hope this helps anyone out there with current R/R issues.
     
  12. stumpy

    stumpy New Member

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    Very informative Ghost and Paul47. Thanks. Are there any do's or don'ts I should know about before replacing the R/R?
    Stumpy
     
  13. GreyVF750F

    GreyVF750F Member

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    "In the heavy current lines, avoid connector use as much as possible. Solder connections are far superior. Connectors are OK in other cases where they have little chance to heat up."

    "Ahhh... Connectors in high current lines are problems waiting to happen. Might even be an example of designed-in obsolescence!"

    ******************************************************

    I have a first gen and don't know if the RR problem was prevalent for this model. I've had several experiences with mine.

    The first was when I noticed the yellow wires looked like they were lightly burnt and the connector looked bogus. I took the connectors apart and cleaned them. Seemed to work fine for the next couple of years. I use a 65/100w H4 bulb for my head light. I only used the high beam at night. Not that often though.

    One year I decided to use the high beam during the day so hopefully people could see better. After about two months of 100w use I noticed one day that the connector was melted! Wires burnt bad about 1/2" from it. Close to shorting out. I took everything apart and soldered the wires together and pitched the connector. I knew the connector was acting like a big resistor because the contacts themselves couldn't hold up to the current being passed at times and start to degrade the connection. Then it becomes the snowball effect.

    That was about 15 years ago. I use the 100w quite often over the years and never have had a problem since. I check the wires periodically and they are fine.

    A solder connection is the best, a soldered lug is next. The only bad part of the connection comes when the lugs don't contact well because of slight oxidation/corrosion. Which gets worse over time. It doesn't really take much for degradation. If lugs/slip connections are use then it's a must to use a dielectric grease on them to stop it. I also use a product call Deoxit on all my contacts on the bike. DeoxIT®

    This is just my experience over the last 15 years or so with my RR.
     
  14. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    Having had two R/R failure that all added up were expensive. A good thing IMO, is to do a load test on the battery once in awhile.

    Long story-short version:

    On I-205 out of Portland during the heat wave in thick traffic. Engine dies. Aha, the old R/R thing again. I have a brand new spare under the seat. I do a roadside swap and no juice. Couple of guys stop and one goes to an auto supply and buys me a new battery. I have some bucks in my wallet so I pay him, install the new battery, add the acid and she fires up. I get home and swap the "new" R/R for the "old" R/R and sho-nuff it was the battery that was toast.

    Lots of "fixes" for the R/R's. Mine is mounted on the frame and gets little circulation. One quick fix is to add a couple of fibre washers to the mounting assembly. Heat sink fins and muffin fans are a really easy install by a little scuff sanding, a wipe with a little acetone or lacquer thinner and some five minute epoxy.
     
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