Corner entry...brakes or engine brake?

Interesting topic....

do you use both brakes to scrub speed off for entry into a corner or do you rely simply on engine braking (rear brake technically)

big discussion with my buds these days...none of them use the brakes, they all engine brake or downshift hard....

I read a book from Charlie Hough, says to use both brakes all the time to set up corner entry speed...

interesting, Hough is a expert, but they friends are excellant and experienced riders, fast as hell...maybe not as safe to me as they think they are, but skilled nonetheless

hough says engine braking reduces traction and you never want to do that...the problem with using both brakes is sometimes the chassis gets all out of whack right before the look lean and roll on part....what to do?

what do you think? I think you need to consider the power band of the vfr when this topic comes up...

 

Hey Joel d read the Pace by Nick Ienatsch this article may or may not be helpful, www.ridehsta.com click on safety.

 

Howdy,

My comments will be mostly limited to the VFR. I've not ridden any liter twins or inline fours.

For cornering, the idea is that if you cannot carry your current speed through the corner, then you have to slow down, seems simple enough.

David Hough's comment about engine braking reducing traction seems silly. If you slow down, even if you are just coasting, part of your available traction is being used to slow you down. To slow down a given amount, the tire exerts a given amount of traction on the pavement. How that slowing force is generated is irrelevant.

If you blip the throttle and raise the rpms when you are engine braking, it can be done very smoothly and does not upset the chasis at all. It also makes the throttle response mid corner much easier to modulate for minor corrections. If you are rolling off the throttle to slow down, this does reduce rear traction, but then so does normal braking.

The VFR motor is excellent for engine braking because it is very smooth and predictable. I never have trouble skipping the rear tire. I never chop the throttle, it is just a gradual rolling off as I enter the corner followed by a gradual rolling on through the corner.

The only time I actually use the brakes is if I cannot bleed off enough speed via engine braking, or if I am actually coming to a complete stop. If I am carrying a passenger, I may use the brakes a little just because the bike won't slow as fast as normal under just engine braking alone.

I would also think that using the front brake going into a corner would reduce the amount of available traction for manuevering because you are loading it up with braking forces. Whereas, if you are engine braking, you are only loading the rear tire. Obviously, you don't want to be loading the rear tire excessively when you start to lay the bike over as you could induce a rear slide I always start my roll on at the same time that I start my lean.

Keep in mind that I am only talking about street riding and NOT racing. The speeds on the track are so much higher that for engine braking to be effective you'd be overrevving the engine and probably inducing rear tire skipping. This is why they use the special hubs that prevent the tire from stopping under engine braking. It is more efficient to use the actual brakes to bleed of the speed. On the street, the amount of speed that needs to be bled off for the average corner is not that much compared to the straight line speed (assuming you are not racing on the street )

If your approach speed is very high, then engine braking is not going to be very effective for setting your entry speed. But for the street, your approach speeds should not be that drastically higher than your corner entry speeds and engine braking can be very effective and make for a much smoother ride.

I seem to recall an article about engine braking recently in Motorcycle Consumer News where they took different bikes to the track and compared the level of engine braking for twins, inline fours, etc,... Kind of cool. I think the final conclusion is that it depends on what you are trying to accomplish. Some engines have massive engine braking but they are not fast revving. Others have little to no engine braking but can blast through the rev range in a heartbeat so they have to rely on the brakes to slow. Then there is everything in between.

Adios,

 

I'm with mello dude on this one!

In my experience,it really depends on what level you are riding at.

On the track I don't use much rear brake at all and rely on engine braking to do the work at the rear. The rear is so light when heavy braking that it will not tollerate much brake without starting to slide and there really isn't much traction to take advantage of with all the weight transfered to the front wheel. I learned this at Jason Pridemores school and he seems to be correct.

I use engine braking combined with down shifting and RPM matching mainly to keep the revs up where the engine is ready to pull as you transition out of trail braking and back on the throttle. Jason says that RPMs are your friend so do not be afraid of them (on the track).

After hard straight line braking braking you begin to roll the bike into the turn slowly fading off the front brake as you trail brake towards the apex of the turn. Most riders finish trail braking just before the apex and are using maintenance throttle as they hit the apex and start to roll the throttle back on.

Higher power bikes tend to be faster (lap time wise) when they are ridden in a point and shoot manner. Brake hard and deep,make the turn, get it stood back up asap and back on the throttle. This as opposed to huge gracefull arcing turns that keep you on the sidewall of the tire for long periods of time. You do not want to be over on the side of the tire any longer than you have to because you can't accellerate and the tires get hot and greasy.

Riding the carousel at Road America is a challenge because there is no escape, you just crank it over till the pegs grind and your knee is on the ground and hold it till the other end.
http://vfrworld.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/1147/cat/515

Damn now I have to go for a ride I'm so pumped up just thinking about it!

So that is my 25 cents.....:biggrin:

 

Jason's dad, Reg Pridmore says, the same thing in his classes and in his book "Smooth Riding." I went for a ride on the back of his bike at Laguna Seca and I couldn't tell when he was using brakes or gears, Ungodly smooth. The real key is smooth transitions from power to brakes and back to power again, and use those RPMs. Reg is pretty adamant about keeping your RPMs up, especially on the street. If you don't have to down shift, your acceleration will be quicker and smoother. Keeping you out of harms way (and trucks and Toyotas on their cell phones).

Dave

 

There's a point being missed here,IMHO.(Just to make myself clear. I'm not saying that YOU don't know this, but for the sake of people reading this thread, that don't, I think they need to keep the following in mind).
David Hough...... Said that he believes in using both brakes at the same time........ where pep's that engine brake, are only using the rear(brake)to drop forward movement...... when on this topic that always seems to be fogotten ..... If you only use the throttle to brake it's still ONLY dragging on the rear wheel ; If you are only using the rear brake you are still ONLY dragging the rear brake(with the exception of linked brakes ie;VFR).
There are other issues that seem to be missed as well(but not all the time).
If a person is one that uses both brakes and throttle while slowing down to set their entry speed.... Then they are covering some other objectives ; They are pre squatting the suspension before starting the turn ; Also they are covering(read protecting)the control of an error ie; missing a shift, or rolling over something slimey(regulate which wheel to let off of while that wheel is in the slime)..........
I took Keith Codes' school (3day) back in the the early 80's, and read most of his books(and 2 of David Hough's).
I'm not saying that just letting off the throttle is not a well used method of scrubbing speed..... I do both, just so I know both.... But squatting does stabilize the bike .......

YES.... "The Pace" is the way, that's my goal.

 

the correct answer is actually neither. get all of your braking done with the bike up and down using the brakes (the engine is not a brake, all though it does have braking capabilities). Once your entry speed is set and gear selected for the turn, look for your turn in point. When you are certain you will turn in on the point you want, immediately look for the apex of the turn and apply neutral throttle to settle the bike and suspension. upon apex, begin to apply throttle appropriate to your desired exit speed and look for your exit point. as the bike stands up, apply more throttle to max throttle.

read more here
Brake/down - Cornering Forum

and here (which is my fave)
The Fine Art Of Braking - Cornering Forum

 

IMO your best bet is to take a class from any of the schools mentioned and not mentioned and learn from the pros. You may think your friends are fast. Compared to the guys who conduct these schools, they ain't.

Engine braking is a matter of choice as is using brakes in general. Lots of fine points to consider. I see hotshots all the time who don't match speed with engine rpm. Thier downshifting leaves much to be desired usually defined by the number of high sides done in one's lifetime.

A big fourstroke single has more engine braking capacity than an inline four, a flat twin, Vtwin or a vertical twin.

Some more shit in the game is Pridmore on countersteering. Whoooboy! The can of worms is open again..

 

+1

I've missed shifts, been bad on the brakes so the engine has taken over, but brake pads are cheaper than an engine.

BZ

 

Hey Einstein,

That was originally posted over 6 years ago! I'm sure that he is really on the edge of his seat waiting for your response after all these years. Sharp as a marble you are!

 

Yes and no to all answers. In a perfect world the above is the way to go. But in a race there is nothing perfect. When I was endurance racing we very seldom used the rear brake for anything but drag to slow at times. We adjusted it so it would not lock the rear wheel. All major braking was with front only.

Get the majority of braking done before the corner. Jackie Stewart has a book on that as well as other top racers. Most of the control after braking came with engine rpms. Adjusting your corning speed, line and exit was controlled with fine throttle adjusments. Along with a slight drag on either the front or rear brakes if needed. Every corner is different and the same when racing in traffic. The biggest and least mentioned effect on cornering prowess is engine rpms.

The wheels/tires and engine(transverse crank) are nothing but gyroscopes. The faster you spin a gyro the more controllable it is. The wheels are a set speed and can not be changed without changing the speed of the bike. The engine on the other hand is your friend. I noticed the faster you spin(basically) an engine going in to a corner the more agile the whole bike was when going fast. Gyro effect? Using engine rpms, whether more or less will change the attitude of the bike and how much effort I had to use in controlling it to a certain extent. Low rpms and very high rpms imposed different characteristics on how the bike felt thru a corner. Ever find your self in the wrong gear when entering or just past the entrance of a corner? How did you and the bike feel? Out of whack? That's why you blip the throttle when down shifting. To keep the rpms up for a smooth transition and control of the bike(gyro). Changing gears whether up or down in a corner is not the best way to go. But when the situation calls for it for what ever reason the rpms can be used as a big part of the balancing act.

Bike control whether racing, riding the pace or just street riding is not about one of braking, weight, seating position, throttle control, mental condition etc. It's about using all of that and more for speed, smoothness and total control. It's different and changing all the time because the conditions are constantly changing. Knowing how to do something is different in having the proper reflexes for the conditions your in at the time. Even racing around a closed coarse the conditions will change each lap after lap and you may have to take the same corner differently each time depending on conditions in the corner at that time.

So yes engine braking,wheel braking are both used and neither one is the best way all the time. Depends on conditions of you, bike and the road. Using JUST one limits your riding capabilities.

I hope this makes sense. I don't explain stuff well at times.

 

Hey Singer, is that you on your bike in your avatar?

If so, rock the fuck on brother!

I love seeing cruisers at track days.

BZ

 

Yup, That's me in the middle of the corkscrew at Laguna Seca. Big Fun. Can't wait to try it on the VFR.

Dave

 

My bad! Can you forgive me and maybe cut the other guys some slack too?

As a Christian, I will turn the other cheek and you can kiss the other side of my ass.

 

now comes the issue of the linked brakes here. I have a 6th gen and use the engine, as I have done with the past sport bikes. I've had the rear end break loose doing that, which can get a little puckering. I've also come around corners on the brakes only to see gravel everywhere. If it were the engine breaking, then a little blip on the throttle frees the back tire up enough. With the front, in a lean, that means it's ouch time - if there is enough speed carried.