Mechanic in AZ - Bikes been garaged for almost 2 months now

Bike 2003 VFR (ABS)

Help - Does anyone know someone good with motorcycle charging systems. I have posted on here several times in the past month as I have worked with my mechanic to attempt to fix my battery charging system woows. And here I am again.

I have been through 2 RR made by ElectroSport tomorrow I will be calling them back to attempt to work something out with them. I have also been through 3 stator's made by electrosport.

The latest, my mechanic installed the new stator today, the install of the stator went good and diag test looked good after install. Upon starting the bike stator still tested good and how good AC output. Hooked up the RR and output to the battery was around 13.5 DC. He then said the charge started to dwindel to the battery. So is my RR bad again this would be the 3rd RR. What connections points are between the RR and charging the battery? is it possible I may have a bad connection between the two either a fried wire or a connection point that needs cleaning?

If someone could point out each connection and wire path that is taken from the RR to the battery I would appreciate it. At this point, the only thing I can think it may be is a connection between the RR and the battery. Please correct me if I am wrong. I think I read somewhere that the RR send charging through the start relay, is that correct, is this a possible failure point? The charging system seems so basic yet it is giving me fits, I am at my wits end.

If anyone knows a good electric / charging system mechanic in the phoenix area please let me know. If not I think I may be heading down to the local honda shop to turn over my life savings.

Thanks,
Aaron

 

Yes.

Here are some links you should read up on.
http://vfrworld.com/forums/mechanics-garage/22279-ghost-says-lets-learn-about-r-rs.html

http://vfrworld.com/forums/mechanics-garage/22254-ghost-says-lets-learn-about-batteries.html

Yes, this should be rather noticable though. For a voltage to resistance issue, the heat build up would be enough to show a brownish, if not burnt connector. Cleaning no. Although I am an advocate of dielectric grease on each connection terminal. Just good practice if you ask me.

most all charging systems operate the same, although this sounds more like you want to just have a look at your user manual, and the electrical schematic. the links I provided and the crude diagrams, are as I said, very typical. there are slight varriations to each bike yr model, but the basic wiring is the same.

A. honda dealers, although you may EXPECT them to know more and be more knowledgable, often are no better than a local guy, or a small shop. Their employees are guys and gals just like any other who graduate from a motorcycle engine repair degreed program. not all are straight A students, if you catch my drift.

B. if you have your bike, get a voltmeter. disconnect all the plugs from the RR, lable the 3 yellow wires A B and C, then test them each. list the results below.
A= VA/C
B= VA/C
C= VA/C

C. Connect the RR to the three yellow plug only, and test the other connector from the RR. You should have something like two red and two green. only thing to check for the Greens are continuinity to the battery ground.
Red1=
Red2=
Green1 check "ok" (yes/no?)
Green2 check "ok" (yes/no?)

D. Ensure your battery is good, and check it per the following;
Battery with bike off = VD/C
Battery with everything connected, and bike on idle = VD/C
Battery with everything connected, and bike at 5K RPM's = VD/C

Also, F. How old is your Battery? brand and ~ bike usage.. (I.e. 20 miles a day to work, or 45 miles to work, or only on weekends about 100 miles..etc.)

I promise to check this thread often, if you work with me.

 

DAMN !! That GHOST is good with electrics, what?? A ruddy Thomas Alva, 'e is.
>>>>>>>

Most charging/voltage issues require tests be made starting with a FULLY CHARGED battery, not one half -discharged by cranking or prolonged idling, which discharges voltages.

The reason you mentioned starter relay is that main wires connect there, can concentrate heat, and it's an area that may do the melt-down we all fear. Charging problem analysis should always include a total inspection of plugs and connectors.

If you really need a dealer to sort it out, Phoenix is loaded with competent dealers, and you could PM me for my recommendation.

 

Thanks ghost for your insights, I sat with my mechanic and did all the tests you described today.
Stator details:
Engine Off
A - B = .2
A - C = .2
B - C = .2

Engine On:
A= VA/C (idle 25 rev to 5k 60 yo 70)
B= VA/C (idle 25 rev to 5k 60 yo 70)
C= VA/C (idle 25 rev to 5k 60 yo 70)

Check for Ground stator was not grounded
Stator Looked Good

Now tested RR:
Turned engine on with leads on battery (fully charged), Battery was not being charged and was slowly drained.

Uninstalled RR and installed new OEM stator.
With Engine on and idle DC put to battery was around 13.2 when rev to around 5k DC output to battery raised to 13.9.
RR now appears to be testing good.

At this point it appeared the charging system was good to go and I was home free right!!!!

So I give my mechanic some cash for completing the job and I was off on my way. With in two miles I observed the tempature steadily rise, it was a hot day in Arizona so I kind of expected a higher than normal tempature. By the time I pulled over to check things out the tempature had risen to 220. In the process of the last half mile of riding the bike I also noticed the ABS light was flashing / blinking red. Once I was pulled over in a parking lot I shut the bike off and immediately tried to turn the bike back over. the bike would not turn over, not even a sound like it was trying to turn over. Luckily for me the parking lot I was in was my work parking lot, so I rolled it into the parking garage put a lock on it and got a ride home. Just before I got in my ride to go home, about 15 mins after shutting the bike off I attempted one last time to turn it over. This time it did attempt to turn over and just about started up. (hmm, to me this seemed to have somthing to possibly do with heat on the bike causing a malfuction).

So here I am tonight bike not at home yet, but hopefully closer to eventually get myself back on the bike soon. Did some research and found a possible recall that might apply to my bike (2003 VFR ABS), what do you think, does this look like a possibility to you?

2003 Honda Vfr800 ELECTRICAL SYSTEM:WIRING Motorcycle Recall at Motorcyclist Magazine

Thanks again all for you insight you all are awesome

 

Called Honda Warranty and Recall this morning to get the information on my bike recall.
2003 Honda Vfr800 ELECTRICAL SYSTEM:WIRING Motorcycle Recall at Motorcyclist Magazine

So Honda says that a claim has already been filed on my VIN for this recall and that they do not have any further responsiblity. This is a little disappointing to me can this really be? If the same part fails twice would this point to a faultly recall part? Anyhow so now here I am needing to further diagnose my bike, but I don't think it is the charging system causing the problem at this point.

I need to trailer the bike home to get a better idea of what is going on and I am contemplating taking the bike to Western Honda for them to diagnose the problem.
Any ideas or feedback / suggestions are welcome.

 

lol Squirrel, though from watching the movie, The Prestige, we learn that Edison copied theories and stole information from Tesla. Damn him! Sneaky bastard.

arichins, well, this is actually good information.
through some testing and deductive reasoning, we stand to say that the charging systems individual components are working correctly. And now we know there is a relationship with heat.

Lets explore some other possible areas to eliminate.

Thermostat
Water pump
water level
battery capacity.. (take it to autozone and have it tested. Some of the tests you do with a meter will show a false good battery)
fuses
starter motor ohm
resistance across the starter relay.. (check this with the screwdriver test).
oil level
color of oil

mmm, all I can think about for now. Anyone else help me brainstorm this?

 

Completed:
Color of oil and oil level - I just have the oil changed with Mobil 1
Water level - I just re-filled and capped off the water / coolant
Battery - I took this to a local car part store and they tested and advised battery was good

Need to test:
Thermostat (How do I test)
Water pump (How do I test)
fuses (Checked fuses near battery and they were good, looks like there are some fuses under the front cowl that need to be checked.
starter motor ohm (How do I test)
resistance across the starter relay.. (check this with the screwdriver test).
What is the screwdrive test?

 

Have the bike back in my garage now, so I can start doing some test on it in my free time after work and this weekend

 

I can help you. My brother in law lives in QC. I've been through that charging BS twice on two different fifth gens.

 

ZonaMan - I would appreciate any help I can get.

I just charged up the battery, with a charge battery my bike turns over fine. However no DC is being output to the battery. So looks like we are back to square one. I am thinking some electrical short most have shorted out my either my RR or my Stator. Did some preliminary test on the Stator all yellow leads showed .5 with bike turned off. Tried to test AC/V output when bike was running, but for some reason I don't think I was doing it right because my readings were weird. Will attempt again tomorrow.

 

I'm willing to put my money on a loose terminal ground somewhere. Honda is notorius for that crap too. Since we reasoned out your components, the chance stands that your problem is something loose or a partial closed short.

I believe your wire harness needs to have resistance and continunity checks done, specifically for the 4 wires from your RR to the harness and harness to the battery. Thats where your problem is.

 

Ghost -
I just read up on my multimeter tool this morning and will start doing some of the resistence testing this weekend.

 

k, looked at my stator wiring and the wire cover is melted together and the wires have shorted together. So the stator is going to be replaced again. With the stator wiring being fried I am thinking possible the RR is gone to. Does that sound right? Firgured the RR is possibly rejecting the ACV coming from the stator and thus heating up the wires and melting them. Is that a correct assumption?

What I know...
- stator wires melted
- RR and is possible gone, however I don't know how to test it without a good stator.

Assumptions...
There has got to be a connection to the RR that is causing havic it with it. Since I have replaced both the Stator and the RR at least twice for both of them, the problem does not appear to be the stator or the RR.

K with that said, I will start to follow the wiring connected to the RR and see where it leads and see what I can trace down.


Note:
Note sure I am cut out for this, this is my first bike and I am a little discouraged by it not working for me and not having that much time to work on it. So with that said if anyone feels they would like to get a bike a good deal with some work to be done on it send me a message and let me know what you are willing to pay for it.

I booked it out on Nada Guide just now and this is what I got.
PRICING
Low Retail Average Retail
Base Price $4,340 $5,425
Options
Abs Brakes $470 $534
Fairing-Full $250 $284
Saddle Bags $265 $283
TOTAL PRICE $5,325 $6,526

This bike Stock except:
- Side Hard Bags and Trunk.
- Stock Seat
- Corbin seat (small seam separation in about an inch segment)
- Factory auxilary accessory kit
- ABS

So either way I am continuing to work on the bike, but if you feel you might want to make an offer and fixer up yourself hit me up with an offer.

 

I have now dis-assemlled the front of the bike and looking to inspect and test some circuits

 

I have checked all the fuses, they are all fine.

 

probably already stated, but i'd be looking for bad grounds now and adding new ones.

you can push to force a new wire into the green wires at the R/R plug and attach that wire directly to battery negative post. a zip tie or electrical tape will help hold it into the plug.

 

squirrelman, thanks for the tip.
so should I run two wires, one from each green wire to the negative on the battery post? What gauge wire should I use? This to ensure the RR is grounded right?

Anythings on OEM Stator and RR, seems like my luck with ElectoSport is not very good.

I inspected the sub harness today and the 18 pin connector looked to be fine, I could not see any burn on melting locations on the local connector or wires. So I am thinking the sub harness is probably ok.wondering if it could possibly be my main harness. Looks like maybe I should check all those connection points as well.

 

I just retrieved my last two error codes they were both 14 blinks, so error code 14 (Power Circuit).

Problem Code 14: Power circuit inspection

 

Hmm, well since you stated the stator wires were melted, I am convinced the problem lies with your ground system. I would remove your acc. kit, for this diagnosis and repair. And before reinstalling it, ensure it is properly installed and grounded.

Your stator should have 3 yellow wires and a black neutral. The black may be connected elsewhere along the wire harness, so don’t worry if you cant find it. If your stator wire connector melted and crossed, your R/R is definitely dead. Most likely you need to replace the battery as well.

I would start with the Stator, replace it. Put in a new battery, and attempt to operate the bike. (leave the R/R disconnected)

Here’s your problem. Your stator connector is seeing high resistance. High resistance = high heat. High heat = melted wires, and or plugs…which allow further electrical shorts. So why the high resistance in the first place? Well, we can rule out your R/R, and your Battery. The only other item connected to your charging system is your ignition, and starter. Since an actual starter motor failure is fairly rare, and would require a series of other malfunctions first, it stands to chance your problem lies with the Ignition. More specifically, you have a ground somewhere which is providing feedback to your power, hence is an electrical short, creating resistance, and creating heat. Although the entire system is seeing the same resistance feedback, the weak points take the brunt of the situation, I.e. the connections.

 

I recently had ocasion to study a melted ('84 VF 700) wiring harness and can state, after post-mortum forensic examination, that Honda mistakenly tries to tie too many individual component grounds into one single wire, IMO!!