Arrogant Cop

I was just saying that I do believe that asshole types are attracted to the job. I generally don't have a problem with traffic cops, although I have been pulled a couple of times on what I thought were BS reasons, luckily I never got a ticket from either of those or I would have escalated it.

Now I do a lot of late night/early morning photography, which usually involves me and a huge tripod and I hate getting hassled by cops. They detain me for no reason and ask to see ID (which I do not show).

 

Law Enforcement

In South Africa, law enforcement is handled a little differently to some countries. We have our regular Police, who deal with all non-traffic related crime, and then each metro has a traffic department which duty it is to enforce traffic law.
The problem here is that, by and large, traffic law enforcement is seen as a revenue generating exercise on the part of the metro involved. Speed cameras abound in the cities and video radars/lasers are common on highways.
The attitude of traffic cops to bikers is generally mild, although there are the usual exceptions with an axe to grind.
Unfortunately, the attitude of bikers here to the law tends to be on the contemptuous side. Unlicensed bikes, unlicensed bikers, suburban speeding, unbaffled pipes, illegal helmets, DUI and unroadworthy bikes are fairly common, and to a point, the cops have turned a blind eye, but they are becoming a little nastier now as the bike fatality rate has started to mount.
I enjoy the freedom and power of a bike, but I try to exorcise my speed demons on the highway, traffic allowing, or deserted rural roads. Track days at the small track in my city are rare and expensive. The camera fines I generally pay, because I was busted fair and square - unless I can prove I was not at point X when the offense occurred, but that's another exercise in red tape.
On the whole, bikers have it pretty easy here. :sportbikesmile:

 

It doesn't matter how nice and polite you are to most cops, you're still getting the ticket. I was out in the middle of no where (to those familiar with CA I was on I-5 just south of Patterson) when a cop on the other side of the un-divided freeway turned around and pulled me over for driving 80 in a 70. There were no cars around, I was weaving across lanes, i pulled over immediately and was very polite and respectful. I still get a lecture and a sour attitude from this :asshat: cop who thinks I'm the worst thing since Hitler. He's probably one of those cops who pull people over "just to check" which i think is an abuse of power in my mind. On the bike front, if a cop is just pulling bikes over with no laws being broken "just to check" then it sounds like the SS in World War II. That's why a lot of people have a sour attitude towards cops. Just because you can, doesn't mean that you should.

 

I have observed in a professional setting that doctors, lawyers and leo's will never rat on each other...nuf said

 

If a cop is not going to pull you over randomly to check to see if you have a driver's license, then where is the incentive to get one. May be we should step back many years where anyone could just get into a vehicle and drive. God help us. Doctors, Lawyers and Cops are not the only ones who tend not to speak against their co-workers. I think you can apply that thought to just about every profession. I don't agree with this behavior but it is what it is.

Grow op owners, drug dealers, stolen property dealers, (maybe not pimps and hookers). How about home construction workers when the building inspector comes around. Maybe military people when a friendly fire incident happens. Before I go further, I want to make it perfectly clear I stand behind our military people out there but mistakes are made. Butcher shops where the scales are tampered with. Come on people, the list goes on forever.

I do take exception to the comment that Law Enforcement attracts assholes. That statement only surfaces the authors intellect.

Time to unsubscribe to this thread. It is going no where.

 

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, as am I. When is the last time you hung out with 50 cops and determined the percentage of assholes? I have never done this with photographers so it would be unfair for me to form an opinion based solely on the few encounters I've had with them.

I'm curious as to the BS reasons for your stops. I have stopped alot of people that thought the reason was BS. The law provides many legitimate reasons for vehicle stops. It could be something as simple as a burned out license plate light or brake light. It could even be exceeding the speed limit by as little as 1mph. LIMIT! If people don't understand they can look it up. Most stops are not conducted solely for these reasons and usually do not involve a citation. If the officer so chooses he may issue a ticket because these BS reasons are a violation of the law. They are usually used to stop someone that is suspicious for one reason or another. The burden for stopping a vehicle falls on REASONABLE SUSPICION that a person has violated a law, not PROBABLE CAUSE.

How would you escalate a situation if you were given a ticket? I hope you are not refering to a physical confrontation.

The officer is going to do what he/she is going to do on the side of the road. The place for arguing is in a courtroom. We are only human and make mistakes like everyone else.

As for being hassled by the cops and not showing ID, be careful. If you do some research on case law decided by the US Supreme Court you will find that if an officer is investigating a crime and suspects that you are involved, they may request ID and if your ID is not satisfactorily established, you can be arrested and held until your identity has been confirmed. As for harassment, we are not restrained from approaching anyone and asking questions anymore that John Q. Public is. If you are in an area where people usually aren't, or at a time that people usually aren't, most cops are going to stop and talk to you.(or harrass you, depending on your point of view)

The people who usually complain about this harrassment are usually the same people that ask why we didn't stop and ID the guy who was standing on the corner for an hour before their house got broken into or their bike was stolen.

Many people get into trouble because they think they know the law or a police departments procedure and then run their mouths to the cops. I would submit that unless you are a lawyer, study current law, or are a police officer that has had their yearly legal updates, the best thing to do is exactly what is requested of you. I would't think telling you what shutter speed to use or tell you how to set your ISO, even though I have some training in the use of a camera for forensic purposes. The point is it isn't my profession and you probably know more on the subject than I.

Contrary to what seems to be the popular belief, most cops don't get into this profession to harrass,shoot,or beat people. Most of us do our job because we want to serve, and to do for people things that they either can't or won't do for themselves. I am proud of my profession and the men and women I serve with. We deal with the best and worst society has to offer and try to maintain our professionalism with both.

In the last 5 years, I have had my knee broken, my ribs seperated, and my shoulder dislocated while on duty. I serve high risk drug search warrants on a regular basis and have been assaulted on several occassions. I find weapons regularly, so please forgive me and my colleagues if we harrass you by asking you stupid questions like "do you have any weapons in your vehicle".

You have the right to form your own opinions and you may not like us, but we will still be there to help you when you need it regardless of our personal opinions.

Once again, feel free to return fire.

 

I guess winter is upon us.... :wacko:

 

I have been thinking about this issue with cops compared to other professions. One thing that I think is particularly sensitive about the police is that you as a citizen don't have much recourse if you do not agree with the way the officer treated you. You are literally f*cked in the

With doctors, lawyers, etc... if you do not like their services you can always ask for a refund and go somewhere else. But if you receive a ticket from a police officer your only option is court and you better either have a lawyer or have excellent resources and time to conduct research yourself.

With SilverSurfer's 80 in 70 ticket he won't be able to go to court and just say, "Your honor there was no one around and with my years of accident-free riding I do not feel I should be punished for that." Realistically, the only way to defeat a speeding ticket is to use the law against them.

I have seen police officers hiding out in speed traps on a highway and then they haul a$$ back on the highway then stop to another hiding spot. Think about the irony of that one. They are SPEEDING to get to another speed trap and enforce the speed limit. :unsure: And I, John Q. Public, can't just call up the police department and say I saw a police officer speeding. Where is the accountability and leading by example from the police?

Let's say I went to a fast food place and the burger is undercooked. I can just go to the manager and say, "Hey could you cook this burger again?" And he will cook it again, no questions asked. But with a police officer I can't just go to his supervisor and say, "This guy is treating me like pond scum just for speeding on an empty road."

As a side note SilverSurfer, if you wish to teach the SS cops a lesson check out Speeding Ticket and Engineering Traffic Survey There is some information on california speeding tickets and how to beat them.

 

I'm sure there are times and places where the police are not correct on enforcing the law (We are humans).I average 1 speeding ticket every year and never give dis-respect to any police officer and some are more friendly than others, but lets face it the police did not pull me over to become friends. I have noticed one thing after being pulled over many times in my life, give respect and respect will be returned. In many cases the police have reduced my amount I was speeding to 9 miles over the speed limit or give me a warning. FYI I drive 50,000 miles a year or more. I did have a sheriff pull me over and was a complete A@#, respect and I think he was needing some food or something real bad got me off the hook.

 

I look at it this way... You can never predict where people are going to gather. By saying that "if you are in a place where people don't gather, you're going to get stopped" is ridiculous. Maybe I sought out that place to get away from the idiots in the world. This doesn't mean that i want to do something wrong; and to say that most people would be doing something wrong shows a lack of understanding about human nature and a need for more sensitivity training.

Go ahead and unsubscribe if you want, there are enough opinions here to keep this thread lively...:bootyshake2:

 

I would venture a very large guess that most, if not all, of the members of this board would change their views of LEO's in general if one simple thing would happen.

What is that simple thing you ask? Let me break it down for you.

I want some LEO, I don't care who, to publically admit that sitting on the side of the road generating revenue is total :bs: .

It IS NOT about public safey. Any attempt to convince anyone otherwise is total & utter :bs: . It IS about making money by intimdating the public. Most, if not all, civilians are very hesitant to go to traffic court since there is the very real possibility of having the already bogus fine increased + court costs. That sounds just like extorsion to me.

I know for certain no one will man up & admit this so I really don't see my opinion changing any time soon.

I have no problem with guys like C111 who are narcotics detectives. That is a very necessary thing in this world. I wish they would take 75% of the revenue generators, ooops, I'm sorry, I mean traffic officers, would be reasigned as detectives for anything. There is a definite need for traffic officers, but somewhere along the way, the system broke down & it became about money & not public safety.

KC-10 FE out...
lane: :usa2:

 

KC-10 FE -- In NC if you go to court and fight a ticket, your fines do not increase. You either win and pay nothing, or lose and pay the cost of the ticket. The court cost is already included in the citation. The fines for speeding are set based on the mph above the posted limit. A judge cannot convict you of an additional charge which would carry a higher penalty, because you haven't been charged with one.

As for public safety, the likelyhood of fatalities in an accident directly relates to the speed which a vehicle is traveling. It is a simple fact. If you hit something at 10 mph vs 80 mph....well it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. Speed also directly relates to reaction time and stopping distance. The average reaction time is 3/4 of a sec. at 20 mph that is 20 ft. traveled before you even touch the brake and another 20 to stop a vehicle. The distances increase in direct proportion to the speed of the vehicle.

THIS SECTION IS NOT DIRECTED AT ANY INDIVIDUAL(S). I DON"T KNOW ANY OF YOU.
The speed, stop sign/light, vehicle safety inspection, etc. laws are enforced for public safety. They are designed to protect people like my wife and children from morons who think they can break the laws of physics with their superior driving/riding skills. The guy who doesn't feel the need to come to a complete stop at the sign or light is gonna be the guy who takes one of us out on a bike or run into my family and that is not acceptable. Not only are we protecting our families from these idiots, we're protecting their families from other idiots.

Some may say "it's my bussiness if I want to risk my life at 100mph+ on my bike". To which I would reply- Kill yourself if you want, it's like throwing chlorine in the gene pool. However we do not operate on these roads by ourselves. My parents, brother, wife and children, and friends are also out there and by breaking the laws you are endangering them and you have no right to do so.
As for citations being a revenue generator, of course they are. Part of the funds go to fix those potholes we all love, and someone has to pay for those snow plows, and don't forget the school buses. The court costs go to paying judges, clerks, public defenders, etc. that are a necesssity because people love to break traffic laws. The point is, yes it generates revenue, but if you don't break traffic laws, you don't enter into this vicious cycle.

I have seen some terrible accidents. Some have resulted in fatalities and others not. Speed has been a contributing factor in most of them. To say that enforcing traffic laws doesn't safeguard the public is absurd.

SilverSurfer800---I don't belive I stated that if you are in a certain place at a certain time that you must be doing something wrong. The examples I had in mind were more along the lines of parks after dark or around businesses after closing. However, if a cop approaches you and starts a conversation and ends up asking your name, would it offend you more than if an average joe did the same thing?

The firing range is open, take your shots.

 

Agreed you can't tell me hiding ona road where the limit changes from 80-60 and there has been 0 accidents and there is no reason for the change and there is good line of site is BS.

I have no problem with enforcment of trouble spots. If a paticular intersection had a lot of crashes and some of them where speed related then heck ya stick a cop there and ticket people and make the roads safe.

Don't bust the working guy following traffic and driving in a safe manner.

Also crack down on those arse holes weaving in and out of traffic.

Lets face it most times we see cops we are not happy to see them, and most of the time most people are not bad people and thus probably do not warrant a ticket.

It is about cash and getting as many people as possible, saftey has nothing to do with.

That said i am all for cops pulling people over and checking cars. But speed traps and photo radar is just dumb.

I will always have 0 respect for the cops that work speed traps. Why? because there not cops, for that shift they are scum scamming good people out of there cash and should be fined for disterbing the peace.

Traffic cops rate some where between what my dog crapped out this morning and the white stuff a bird left on my car. They are making a choice to penalize good working peole for a minor infraction and in doing so provide nothing benifical to the world unless your a traffic lawyer...everyone favorite group of people.

so

Cop's protection people and promoting a safe city=good
traffic cops working speed traps=scum

also they have admited it is for cash....since there are companies that contract this out to cities....
the contract out photo radar contracts..ya not about cash at all.

 

You speak for yourself down in friendly PE, up in the big city we have regular, lets pick on the bikers today, days when you get busted for smiling. On the whole though what you said about bikers breaking the laws does hold true. There are your old style bikers and then the newer generation that does have a little respect for the law. I work with our Metro boys up here on most of the big events and some are really vocational. Sadly to some it is a pay packet.

 

Yes that is true and that is why I freaking hate tailgaters. In the atlanta highways the speed limit is 55 mph but traffic usually goes at least 70 mph. When I first moved to the atlanta area from a small town I obeyed the speed limit within reason, sometimes I'd go as high as 60 mph but I had way too many close calls with impatient tailgaters. So I had no choice but to go with the flow of the traffic and even though I had been riding at least 80 mph on atlanta highways for over two years I have been in ZERO accidents.

The real issue I believe is that people don't realize that the faster you go you have to allow more room for error and increase your gap between cars. Driver education and smarts is the REAL issue.

Look at the autobahn in germany. Despite having no speed limits the fatality rates are actually similar if not better than US highways. The big difference with germany and usa is how easy it is to get a license. In germany, it's a rigorous process and they don't just hand out licenses like candy. Plus every car has to pass inspection so you can't have your rust bucket with a broken headlight in germany. Here in US anyone with half a brain can get a license.

The thing is, why not just make traffic tickets outrageously expensive? For example, a 10 over ticket could cost you $1,500. I can guarantee you that if the law allowed that there would be a drastic reduction in speed. I love speeding but it's not worth $1,500 to me. You can read more on a rant here (not by me but I agree with his views) The Revenue Enhancement Tax EXPOSED!

 

Well I have mixed feelings about traffic officers. Some people don't need to be on the rd. We've all seen the drivers who are going way to fast or driving recklessly endangering people lives.

I'd imgaine it's hard to distinguish this sometimes from responsible drivers. But dam!t it, I got pulled over on my motorcycle for speeding and it was completely bs. This is a major interstate around Atlanta, GA. I even politely explained why he lasered my at that speed. His response "there is no excuse for speeding sir!". Really?? How about all your cop buddies who speed while not in pursuit? What if my wife was going into labor? A family memeber in dire need for help? I'm sure those things will get overlooked. But I guess there just isn't any excuse for me. I was following every textbook riding strategy taught by the state and MSF.

I could pull out the state mototrcycle hand book right now and it will say verbatim what I did with traffic merging into my lane, being boxed in and riding in blind spots. But nope, thats no excuse. So while some traffic cops are cool - like some citizens. These guy and others like him are complete morons! Like some citizens.

 

About speed limits and safty
Do Speed Limits Matter?

basically, people will drive at the speed they feel safe. 95% of peoples speed will be the same, these 95% of people driving the same speed are typically 10mph over the speed limit and these 95% are speeding but have the lowest crash rate.
People driving slower crash more often.

It is a diffrence in speed that causes people to crash. If the road and vechiles where built for it and we all went 400 mph it would be safe.

crashes happen at intersections or when a diffrence in speed is present. Speed limits make this happen as people drive how they feel safe. if that speed is faster than the limit then some will drive the 10 mph faster and some 10 mph slower...

I believe speed limits are set far to low. they all need to be raised 10-20 mph.

 

The photo cameras are based on a speed law call prima facia, meaning on it's face or at 1st glance. In NC we don't have a prima facia law so those cameras are a no go. In NC our tickets are written on our estimation of speed backed by a radar reading.

Speed traps? The speed limits are clearly posted(if not then you probably have a viable defense in court) and all vehicles come equiped from the factory with brakes to allow for deceleration to the correct speed. Having said that....I personally will not write someone when they are entering a slower speed zone. However if you are running 75 in a 65 and do not decrease speed within a reasonable distance after entering a slower zone you are now running 75 in a 55 and I believe that would warrant a ticket or at the very least a verbal warning(if a reasonable excuse is offered). But regardless of how you feel about my or my colleagues enforcement decisions, if the speed is posted, by law you are to follow it or face penalties.

I don't write traffic laws, so if you don't like the speed limits, spend as much time writing emails to the people that do, as you have replying to this thread.

The autobahn. I have not been to germany personally so my knowledge is limited in this area. It seems to me though that the autobahn is like an interstate and this comparisson would not apply to city traffic. I am also not familliar with the amount of traffic on the autobahn vs the amt on American freeways.

Good people break laws too. I've arrested alot of good people who have committed crimes. Many of these people have never been in trouble before or since. Perhaps the enforcement action that I took was a wake up call and they realized that breaking the law carries a penalty if you are caught. HMMMM...........

I do agree with you to an extent. I don't believe that people actually operating their vehicle at the speed limit are involved in more collisions. I'd need to see some stats on that. However it would appear to me that if they are it is a direct result of someone who is going faster colliding with them. Maybe their perfectly legal lane change at 55mph cause the guy running 65 to 70mph to collide with them.

As far as the majority of people feeling more comfortable at higher speeds.... In this age of video games and increased hand eye coordination, it is entirely possible that the majority of people are more comfortable going faster. But our laws are not based on majority rule, that would be a true democracy. We live in a democratic republic in which our elected officials make our decisions for us and their decisions are not always based on the opinion of the majority.Right, wrong, or indifferent, it is reality. Our lawmakers have given us the speed limits, we have to live with it.

As far as the working man following the flow of traffic, I am divided. I personally do not single out vehicles for enforcement, when all are travelling a similar speed. I don't think it's fair. But the other train of thought is that if I ticket every vehicle that is exceeding the posted speed limit, traffic will eventually slow to the speed limit.

I believe it was Thomas Jeffersoon who said "I hold that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing" . But I assume that Thomas understood that rebellion comes with a cost(nothing good comes free type thing). If your form of rebellion is breaking traffic laws for whatever reason, you should be prepared to reap the consequences of your actions. It may be fines, incarceration, or the impounding of your vehicle.

I suppose you could rationalize speeding by comparing you being late to work, to say a gazelle approaching a waterhole even though a few lions are present. Gazelle herd=traffic Lions=traffic cops. You will probably get away with it since you are just one of many, but if you get caught you pay the price.

This may not be the best analogy, but let's just look at this logically. 16 mph over the speed limit carries a $50 fine and $120 cost of court for a total of $170. If I am speeding because I am late and may lose an hour of pay.....I don't make that per hour. If I want to go to court and fight it or ask for a reduction, that is another day of pay that I will lose by going to court. If I am 16 over and in excess of 55mph, It is a misdemeanor charge and requires a mandatory court appearance so I'm going to lose that court day at work anyway. Since I've missed so much work that I can't afford an attorney, I'll get one appointed by the court which pretty much guarantees that my court day will be continued, which costs me another day at work. Since we all know that no attorney would never draw out a court case for monetary gain, we will assume that it takes another 2-3 court dates for them to plead us guilty to 9mph over the limit. Since that is in effect a guilty plea to a lesser charge, our fine is decreased to $20, court costs remain the same, and since we're guilty we have to reimburse the state for the attorny fees at about $60 per hour. If I were a businessman(I was for 10 years) and performed a cost analysis, it would seem that speeding is not cost effective.
I almost forgot about insurance points and the fact that gas mileage decreases with speed. I believe you get the picture.

The only good reason I've heard so far for breaking trafiic laws is...I'll get run over if I don't. I can't argue that. But if your sole reasons are personal error(I wasn't able to decrease speed in a different speed zone), or I drive better than everyone else so I should be able to drive how I want, or there is noone else on the road, then I say roll the dice and take your chances, but be prepared to face the consequences of your actions.

You guys are gonna give me carpal tunnel with all this typing.
:rambo:

 

No, You weren't the one who stated that in their post. I personally am not against the job LEO's need to do on the streets; but randomly stopping people "just because" when they are not breaking any laws is an invasion of privacy. Am I supposed to avoid those areas where businesses are closed just because I look suspI respect LEO's for the job that they do. If someone is doing something outside of the law they have the discretion of pulling that person over and warning or writing a ticket.

For my stop, it was the first EVER ticket I have received in over 22 years of driving/riding. If i was speeding down a busy freeway with people all around me then sure i deserve a ticket. But i was in the middle of no where with no car within 2 miles of me, literally. That would lead me to believe that I wasn't a habitual "speeder" and could have served as a warning. Did it make me stop drive/riding over the limit? HELL NO! Now I do it just for spite! :flip: That's what i say to that CHP :asshat: where-ever he may be! ound:

 

Ho ho, you just opened a can of worms sir. Speed limits are defined by the MUTCD and are ultimately to be decided by an engineering survey.

Don't believe me? Check out the MUTCD reference on your state, NC:
Adoption Status of National MUTCD by States and Federal Agencies - FHWA MUTCD

You can see that NC has adopted MUTCD with state supplement.

Look at this following source for section 2B.13

FHWA - MUTCD - 2003 Edition Revision 1 Chapter 2B

Specifically I am referring to this section:

When a speed limit is to be posted, it should be within 10 km/h or 5 mph of the 85th-percentile speed of free-flowing traffic.

This applies to EVERY state in the united states and believe it or not most road speed limits are NOT established by the 85th-percentile speed. Why is that? It's just not a well-enforced law and quite a few speeding tickets have been thrown out due to the fact the speed limit is not even established legally.

Just something to think about. It's one thing to enforce a speed limit but another thing when that very speed limit is not even established properly.