Newbie - Vtec SS Custom Project!!

Discussion in 'Introductions' started by CrazyViffer, May 17, 2008.

  1. CrazyViffer

    CrazyViffer New Member

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    New to the site, but I've owned my '04 VFR for almost a year now and i am in love with this machine. Sorry to you touring guys, but she is a street bike that Honda thought they should...well who knows what they were thinking. I love the V-4 power plant and think the VFR is a blank canvas waiting to be created. This is a long term project and I am just getting started. I know this is just and intro forum but i want all the advice I can get. If you can point me in a direction I'll at least listen. Other than a K&N air filter and new gears the bike is stock. However I intend to transform (if possible) my bike into a mad machine. I am 6'4 and 225, I make most "sport bikes" look like scooters when i climb on them but not my viffer, so please don't tell me to go play with a gixxer, R1, or ZX-10. The VFR is unique and i want to do something different.

    My biggest questions are engine modes.
    1. Can the cylinders be bored? if so does any one have specs?

    2. Has anyone done or heard of porting and polishing the heads?

    3. Available Aftermarket cams?

    I am going to run a Two Bros system with the stash can. Yes I know the dual exhaust is much prettier (and real), but with a little work the sneaky pete bottle of NOS, mounted in the fake can will give me way power than a second real can will.

    I still have much more to ask, but wonder if it has already been answered. Glad to be part of the group
     
  2. mello dude

    mello dude Administrator

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    Welcome to the forum!
    I have a 5th gen and at one time was considering some of the things you want to do minus the giggle gas. Big bore wise there is a limit you can go, the number ecapes me for the moment, but if you do it you have to get the cylinders replated and honed. Millenuim Technologies in Wisconsion does that sort of thing. The only BB kit on the market for now is TS of England and that gives 821cc, not much a bump from the stock 781cc. Cost of doing this was pretty nasty $2500- 3000. So for the small up in cc's I decided not to do it. If you are really bent on it and if you are good wrench you could send your block to Millenium and they will tell you how far you can safely go.

    On the port and polish side, I have been itching to do something like that and I think it would be a decent mod to go with. I was damn close to going that way at one time, but i just had too much going on to tackle additional crap.

    So just my 2 cents - Skip the BB, go for port and polish and play with the giggle gas.

    Good luck,
    MD
     
  3. Rev

    Rev New Member

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    I say go for the port and polish, grab a supercharger kit from that guy on VFRD, and don't forget the Power Commander.
     
  4. VFR-Guy2000

    VFR-Guy2000 New Member

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    Mods to do

    Well I would say for the 6th gen like you and I have, that putting on the Motad Headers is a big gain in power. Since the stock exhaust has that cat in it they are a bit restrictive. When I put the headers on mine it really woke it up:biggrin:. It also will rev up faster. The power commander is another nice add on besides the exhaust slip-ons that are out there. I can see your point for doing the stasher set up. I have aslo wondered if its possible to take the flywheel (if thats what its called on a bike) and seeing if it could be machined to have some weight taken off of it so the motor will rev up even faster. A couple of my friends did this on thier Ducati's and it made a huge difference on how fast thier bikes rev up. I also am thinking of taking off all that California imissions crap on mine. Gearing is always fun to play with to. If anyone has tried the flywheel idea on thiers I would like to know how it turned out. If not then I will probably be the be the lab rat for this one this winter during the off season. I do always like the idea of porting and polishing, and you could even take it a step further and look into milling the heads a bit:rolleyes:.
     
  5. CrazyViffer

    CrazyViffer New Member

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    Rev - Do they make the supercharger for a 6th gen? I tossed the idea around but the super charger is going to add weight, where as i am trying to lose as much weight as possible. I know the power gains are worth it, but then wouldn't it be just as smart to use a turbo. The turbo won't rob the motor of any power. I am all ears to anything though right now.
     
  6. SCraig

    SCraig New Member

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    Turbos aren't nearly as responsive as a supercharger. They have to have a stream of exhaust gas to turn the turbine and that doesn't happen in "Real Time", there is a bit of a lag. Same for getting off the throttle; the turbo is still blowing air until it spools down. Bottom line is there is a lag on both sides of throttle reponse with a turbo that isn't present with a supercharger. Superchargers, on the other hand, do take power to run and will add some weight, probably more weight than a turbo.
     
  7. CrazyViffer

    CrazyViffer New Member

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    SCraig, thanks for the info, I am new to turbos and chargers, I new of lag, but didn't realize it was to that extent. I like the idea of a charger, but i want to keep her as a sleeper. Turbos and chargers can't be hidden.
     
  8. Paul04vfr

    Paul04vfr New Member

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    Hello there Crazyviffer

    On the web site vfrdiscussion.com under featured modifications there is a guy called Toro that has a supercharger on his 5th gen and it fits under the right side fairing. He's going to do kits for 5th gen and said that he also wants to do one for the 6th gen. The dyno sheets showed he had 140 something hp at the rear! I think the price for the ones for the 5th gen will be 5000.00 maybe a little more. I want one for my 6th gen!

    hope this helps
     
  9. SCraig

    SCraig New Member

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    I don't really know how significant it would be on a bike turbo, I just know that the latency exists. I had a turbocharged car and while not significant it was noticeable. I do know that it's a function of the mass of the impeller, the lighter they are the quicker they react, and for a bike turbo the impeller is probably quite small and light so it may not be an issue.

    You are right in that the gas would be more stealthy, but a turbo or supercharger doesn't run out of gas either.

    Whatever you do we want to see pix!
     
  10. toro1

    toro1 New Member

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    Hey guys. I actually fit a Rotrex centrifugal supercharger to my '98, and as such, I might be able to answer some questions here.

    First off, a turbo or a supercharger are going to add similar amounts of weight to the bike, but to be perfectly honest with you, it's not noticeable. I kept everything as centrally located as possible on mine, and the gain in power more than makes up for a few extra pounds.

    Also, there is a myth that superchargers rob the engine of power and turbos do not -- this is simply untrue. While turbos are ultimately more efficient, they still add significant backpressure to an exhaust system (and backpressure = lost power). Just imagine bolting a turbo onto your bike but not hooking up the intake tubing -- do you think the engine won't lose any power? Air is still being compressed in both systems, whether by belt or by exhaust gases, and this act consumes power. It comes down to the fact that a turbo is able to reclaim some of the energy normally lost in the exhaust, thus making it ultimately more efficient.

    This is not to say that a supercharger does not have benefits. The Rotrex I used on my bike is incredibly efficient and very compact, and does not require extensive exhaust modifications. Also, did I mention that its boost curve is incredibly predictable?

    [​IMG]


    Since it is so compact, I was able to fit the whole drive assembly behind the fairing, keeping others none the wiser to the actual amount of power the bike produces. Also, because the Rotrex uses a planetary roller friction drive for its gearbox, there is no whine or audible clue that the supercharger is even there, thus taking the stealthy factor to the max. Take a look at these shots to see how little is actually seen of the drive:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    To ride the bike is incredible. There is always power available, and the rush as the bike races to redline is unbelievable -- the power simply never stops building. You never have to worry about hitting a boost spike coming out of a turn, but that is not to say that the acceleration is linear, as it accelerates faster and faster the longer you leave your right wrist pinned. I only run it on pump gas, and have idled through 90+ degree weather just fine. Also, with the way I have the BOV set-up, you only have boost when you want it -- cruising and slow speed feel just like stock, and the blower puts virtually no stress on the drivetrain in these situations.

    As was mentioned above, I'm currently working on a production kit for 5th-gens, and plan on coming out with a 6th-gen kit after that. It will be a true bolt-on, and the quality will be second to none. If any of you guys have any questions, feel free to ask.


    --Dan
     
  11. Richard Thompson

    Richard Thompson New Member

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    Toro 1, your bike looks flippin stupendous!!!

    love the orange too. awesome stuff.
     
  12. derstuka

    derstuka Lord of the Wankers Staff Member

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    That is truely such an awesome bike Toro....make me want to cry everytime I see it as it is just so beautiful. That Mandarin Orange color looks great as well.

    Has honda ever contacted you about the supercharger setup? I was wondering if they wanted to see what you had done.
     
  13. CrazyViffer

    CrazyViffer New Member

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    Toro1 thank you for the extensive info. You have made me start to rethink my project. I love the fact that the charger is so hidden, stealth is a major factor I want to incorporate. I am curious to see how the sixth gen comes out.I Might have the money saved up by the time you have it done. Do you know if there would be problems if the charger was used with a big bore kit or if I P&P the heads? I wouldn't think so, but chargers are relatively uncharted territory for me. As SCraig mentioned earlier juice runs out, after so many bottles I will have paid for the charger. I want to explore all options be for i start spending money and tearing into my bike. Thanks for all the info.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2008
  14. powerslave

    powerslave New Member

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    It's been a while since I lurked around VFRD and I gotta say DAMN!!! that bike looks right!!!
    I forgot how nice she looks,love the colour!!!
    Please keep us all posted on gen6 supercharger kit development.:ear:
     
  15. ZonaMan

    ZonaMan New Member

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    I never get tired of seeing his bike. And the pics on VFRD of the buildup are brilliant.

    Stick around here Toro, way more laid back and fun! I have never been threatened once by mods to be banned or booted. The mods over there seem to love doing that.

    Post up the pics of your build-up here too! It would be much appreciated and ogled.
     
  16. toro1

    toro1 New Member

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    Thanks for the compliments guys.

    Stuka, Honda has not contacted me, but I have had the opportunity to talk with people from all over the world after seeing my bike. The internet is an amazing thing.

    CrazyViffer, there wouldn't be a problem if you installed a big bore kit or did head work, but the real question comes down to how much power are you looking for? I plan on introducing an intercooled, higher boost version of the kit that should put rwhp somewhere around 170-175 -- do you think you need more than that? The power limit for the C15-60 Rotrex I am using is 200hp, and I'm currently near 168 at the crank, so any more than 175rwhp will require a bigger supercharger, and surely custom internals (forged rods and pistons, and clutch work too).

    The way I figure, a full custom exhaust will free up substantial power, and rather than porting the heads, I'd get custom ground camshafts set up for the supercharger. In fact, just adding an intercooler to the current setup should bump up the power by 10 ponies at the wheel. Of course, if money was no object, a 300+hp VFR would be pretty easy to make :wink:
     
  17. CrazyViffer

    CrazyViffer New Member

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    Toro1 - After looking at your gorgeous bike, i went and searched the web, learned what I could about the Rotrex super charger, as well as chargers in general. One of my worries was detonation with a turbo or charger, and you hadn't mentioned and intercooler. I thought you might have been running a C15-16, and just air cooled it. 170 hp is more than enough, if a charger with an intercooler and a new cam is what it takes, i like that. No machine work, milling or porting will save me money. Unfortunately toro1 money is always an object. I also would like a 300 hp VFR, but a 170-175 hp is more than enough, considering i love her now and she barely puts up 100hp stock:)
     
  18. toro1

    toro1 New Member

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    Detonation isn't a problem. All I ran the bike on was 93 octane, and despite not running an intercooler, there was no real detonation/pre-ignition to speak of. Now, if the boost goes any higher than where it's at now, I wouldn't feel comfortable without running an intercooler. Regardless, with the tweaks I made to the kit, I expect to see 150hp at the wheel, on pump gas, without an intercooler.
     
  19. CrazyViffer

    CrazyViffer New Member

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    toro1 - 150 would make me more than happy. I like the sound of 170 though:) I have just read in other articles that buying a system that has no intercooler is crazy. However these were on cars. I've seen you run your bike, and you obviously know more than I do. I joined VFRD to look at your build pictures and let me say your engineering skills are amazing. I realize now the charger is much smaller than i thought and air temp at the boost you run probably isn't a real factor at all. After seeing your set up I had to go pull my fairings off to see what i had to work with under it all.The 6th gens have a lot less area to work with under the right side fairing. More than enough room to mount the charger up front, but I don't know where I'm going to mount those beautifully cnc'd gears at. Even spacing out the fairing won't give me the space you have on your 5gen. I'm curious what ideas you have. I haven't even rode a bike with a supercharger, but the more research i do the more addicted i get. I def appreciate all your input.
     
  20. toro1

    toro1 New Member

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    Because an intercooler lowers the intake temp, and in turn condenses the charge air, detonation is warded off and higher boost levels can be attained. Since our bikes have a relatively low compression ratio, detonation isn't a problem and an intercooler is not needed for 10psi. Will power be gained by running an intercooler? Yes. Can the boost be bumped up even higher because of it? Yes. But for the base kit, the added expense and complication is simply not needed.

    Also, remember that I relocated the stock oil cooler and radiator, spaced & cut the stock fairings, and modified the inner fairing panels to get everything to fit. At first glance it seems like there is no room for the blower, but after some repackaging, I'm sure it will fit just fine on a 6th gen. All in good time, my friend. :thumbsup:
     
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