no spark=no fuel

Hello, its late in the night and i've been tooling around my beloved vfr since 2pm.

So i went for a ride and bike was running fine. got home killed the engine using the kill switch.

got back on a couple hours later and the fuel pump wont prime.

i thought it was the relay so i jumped it. Fuel pump worked fine. Tested the two black leads, and I got 12.4v. (batts a bit low)

But when I first jumped it, instead of connecting the solid brown with a black wire, I connected the black and brown to a black wire. (whats the result of this error?)

Well, the fuel pump works, so that was not it, then I was checking for spark.

I disconnected the caps and tested for spark gone none. (Also changed my plugs while I was at it, was going to do so anyways)

So thats whats my situation, (no spark or so weak I cant see it.)

Now, I checked for power going to the coils, and All 4 coils were geting 12.xx Volts. Meaning my coils are getting power.

Checked for the peak power while cranking, each coil was drawing about 9.xx Volts. (Does this exclude the CDI and the coils as the culprit?)

So next I check the possibility of the sparkplug wire and cap, I happen to have 1 pair new in my garage, so I hooked it up to one of the coils, and tested for spark. None... (maybe Ill check the other 3 cylinders tomorrow)

So next I checked the engine kill switch/ Engine start button. They seemed clean. (The starter does turn the engine, but there is def. no combustion)

What should I check next? Im stumpped... Im assuming the CDI is ok since it is flowing power to the coils...per the manual it says if the coils are at 12.xx volts with out load, and is above the minimum power drain when cranking, it could the the coils are bad or the wires are bad...

is it possible for 4 coils to go bad all at once?

History of the VFR, its a 2001, It sat around with an empty tank for 3 years, no rust in the tank, did a tune up and through check of the bike before, cranking it, and it was running fine for a week before this happened.

Any input would be awesome.

Thanks,

 

Not sure of wiring similarities between model years and no guarantee this block diagram is drawn out accurately BUT


if the bike cranks your engine stop switch must be ok.

if you've got power to the coils and into fuel cut relay, your engine stop relay (and bank angle sensor) must be working

probable problem at fuel cut relay coil? not grounding? maybe inspect and clean connections into ECM.

 

I checked the PGI and it works, Im getting a little over .7v.

Im really beginning to think its the CDI, please say it aint so...

 

sidestand switch or neutral switch or bad ground is shutting off your fun...

 

I hard wired the Side stand switch, trying to eliminate the cause, I ll check again to make sure its not shorted.

 

ok, the side stand wire is connected together, completing the circuit.

The bank angle senor is also jumped to eliminate the posiblility of the bank angle senor.

 

Ok maybe im getting somewhere now.

The neutral switch getting continuity when in neutral and no signal when in gear , but as I was having a hell of a time disconnecting the 6 pin connector, it felt stuck...fried connector?

I was able to get it apart and I noticed one of the female pin on the sub-harness seems corroded/oxidized/or burnt.

Looking at the wiring diagram, if I remember its a light green/blue wire, and on the main harness connector, it is green/black. So its gotta be a ground.

This wire if Im reading the wiring diagram correctly, is a ground for the coolant temp senor. As its in the Fuel system portion of the manual, its gotta send a signal to the CDI/CDM. Is this one of the system checks the CDI checks for before starting?

Could the connector having discoloration cause this...(could explain everyones insight on bad ground...)

Is there a way to jump the sensor? or check to see if its working? the manual does not have instructions to check to see if its working, only replacing it.

 

I don't think the ECT sensor can cause your problem. Besides the self diagnostics should be able to spot an out of range reading.

I would begin by going directly to the ECM, unplug the connectors and check the main grounds directly to the negative battery post for abnormal high resistance. They would be the solid green (ground all the time)...the green/red (ground when in neutral)...and the green/white (sidestand, sounds like you already shorted the connector).

Charge your battery and make sure it's good. What is the voltage drop on it when you spin the starter?

 

Not that this is any help BUT, I ahd the exact same symptoms on my 03 last week, I tried everything, finally broke down and went to the dealer , they farted with it for 6 hrs. , NADA, mechanic changed the plugs anyhow and voila, running fine. Now this is just what I was told, found it quite hard to believe since it was running fine 1/2 hour before I tried to start it the first time.I still think it had something to do with the harness recall they just did beforehand. Just my .02$:crazy:

 

Thanks about the spark plug they're new, but it wont hurt to try again.

Does anyone know if I can use an 98-99 wiring harness/ CDI or am i stuck to look for a 00-01?

The difference of the 2 really is the 02 sensors correct?

Theres a few VFS here who are 98-99 and to test to see if my CDI is dead is to plug it in their bike. but most of em are 98-99's.

Also if I have to replace my wiring harness, most on ebay is a 98-99.

In the meantime once i get home, ill check the resistance to the grounds.

 

Ok, Im checking for resistance on the grounds and I cant seem to get a reading.

Im testing the multimeter in all the settings, 20k, 2000, 200k and 2M. I cant seem to get a reading in any of the settings. It starts high then drops to zero. Isn't it supposed to hold a value?

Also as I was going over the bike some more, I noticed that the mainfuse a (starter solenoid fuse) was a 20Amp fuse. Replaced it with a 30. (if there was a short in this circuit, it should have blown the 20amp correct? meaining safegarding my system short of 30 amps?)

I cleaned the ground connector where all the green wires attach to the frame. Dont think it needed it, but I did it anyways.

At the moment the battery is at 12.20V. I need to get a charger. the battery is less than 2 weeks old, but since this incident, the cranking has drained it to 12.20.

Ok I just tested my multimeter to make sure its ok (just got it saturday) I used a 470 resistor I have for led's and it measured it at .46 at the 20k setting.

so it works.

So when Im testing for resistance and I get a reading of 1K+ then drops to zero what does this mean?

 

Cross your probe leads and note the reading. If your multimeter is digital it'll be 0, .1, maybe .2 ohms. That is the resistance you should have in a good ground connection.

You're making the ground resistance test with the connector unplugged...right? You gotta isolate whatever circuit or connection you're checking. BTW, careful not to damage the female pins of the connector...sometimes it's hard to get down there, find something small enough you don't have to force but makes the connection.

 

Thanks Dizzy,

I checked the grounds, from the CDI side with the CDI disconnected.

All the Ground wires were reading 0.00, .001, though it did jump from like 100-30-then settled to 0.00.

So I double checked my magnet pickups, and tried the Ignition pulse generator again.

I made a mistake on measuring from the Harness side and not the sensor side.

The IPG was reading at .2, .3, .24 V. Now I don't have a peak hold device, but I tested the IPG about 4 times, for 5 seconds each.
The manual states it should be at a minimum of .7v.

Im going to see if I can pick up an IPG. Still want to test my CDI to see if its fried or not, anyone know if it will work on a 98-99 or a 98-99 CDI work for an 01?
service honda lists the same 4 ecu part numbers, but I have a california bike, so I don't really know if it will work. The 00-01 has 02 sensors where the 98-99 has the choke.

Thanks

 

How did you come out? You could do a resistance test on the PG's and compare it to another one. Otherwise 'rule of thumb' is 100 to 500 ohms. I've usually found restistance to adequately spot bad ones...unless the problem is intermittent. Then you have to allow the symptoms to occur or they'll test good.

As to the question on CDI's...I don't know if they'll interchange. If you try you should verify the wire colors from harness to harness, and figure out any discrepancy. Hate to see any 'fried' components.

 

The IGP seems to be bad. Charged the batt over night, checked the voltage, not getting anything over .04v this is after 10 tries. Per the manual it says its bad. I hope this is the issue, but ill see once I get a new one. I did a continuity test, was not getting anything. (per the manual i should not be getting continuity)

Now I also checked the IPG connections on the CDI harness side, and it was not even registering anything. at most .02v if that. (Im testing at my multimeter setting of 2v.)

All the other sensors turned out fine (atleast in the sensor end) I will check again in the CDI harness end to make sure that is getting signal.

(Ive read in some posts the Ground block (Orange connector with all the grounds pinned) goes bad or gets corroded. Anyone thought of sodering these connections, all together?) I doubt this is my problem, but it should rule out that part as a poor connection for grounds.

So i've ordered a IPG well see if that is it once it gets here.

Now, as for CDI is concerned, the 00-01's have the same CDI's, which can interchange with each other. The only difference is if one is a California Bike or not. Things that associate with this is the ignition timing/ Fuel map. for the Cali bikes are mapped for less grade of fuel.

The 98-99 CDI's (could work) if you place in a 98-99 Throttle body, 98-99 wire harness, a choke. I thought if my CDI was bad, this swap to the earlier gen 5 would be my last resort for I see many CDI's for this years. ( The thing how ever with the 98-99 VFR's, is that they have different cam profiles for the CA bikes and the 49 state bikes.) I would need to see which cam profile is the same for the 98-99 vs. the 00-01.

No body really talks about it here, but I guess ill post my research so if anyone in the future finds something rather than piecing information together.

 

You should read a LOW restistance through the PG yellow and yellow/white wires. If that circuit reads open on your meter, you definitely have a problem with the PG or associated wiring.

Honda's bright idea of only using the peak voltmeter to troubleshoot at that time (things have changed) kinda sucks. I find it revealing in the PG troublshooting section of the shop manual that half the things listed are problems getting the proper reading with the peak voltmeter rather than actual problems with the circuit itself. It's hard to figure electrical if you can't trust your measuring tool.

Good luck...post your results.

In regards to the ground block...I soldered around that coupler (blue with green wires in this case) on a 2003 viffer that was having problems...worked fine. A year later Honda came out with a recall regarding that very thing and I ended up replacing the harness on that bike anyway...at least the owner didn't have to pay.

 

Thanks Dizzy,

Ja, the PG is toast per all the tests. This is on a newly charged batt at 13.8 v. (slight over charge)

My question is, shouldn’t the fuel pump prime even if the PG is out? And just not produce a spark? Or is this one of Hondas fouls to disrupt fuel if there is absolutely no spark?

Still dreading that my CDI is gone.

In any case, I was able to source out a 99 CDI and Wiring harness for less than 200. If all fails I will convert to that system.

Since I have a California bike, the 49- state 98-99 CDI will work, I just don’t know about the wiring harness pin outs, so I opted to get the wiring harness.

The 49-State CDI for 98-99 is mapped for higher octane, but one can just place in additive and it will work. (much less of a head ache than looking for a 00-01 California CDI)

Also the 98-99 49 state bikes use the same Part numbers for the Cams on the 00-01 bikes all 50 states. Im assuming that these then use the same cam profile. I don’t see anyone talking about this (swap) no real benefit, but if one cant source out a 00-01 CDI, this is an alternative.

I’ll post my findings once I have all the parts and the bike running. I will be using the 00-01 throttle bodies, so I will keep the wax unit since it is not controlled by the CDI.

With all these issues, I think it may have stared cause the wiring harness was spliced in some connections in the instrument panel end, (from a theft) but I thought I insulated these wires enough. I guess not.

 

Also on the checking the grounds, I could not get resistance on the PG or the Clutch switch on the CDI connector side. (even when I pull the clutch in.) Even tried to test if any voltage readings on that Green/Red wire, and did not get any. (Cluch diode and the Starter relay all check ok and are with in specs.)

Ailments, Bad connection through the wiring harness, bad ground or bad switch. But since I cant get signal from the IPG nor resistance in the IPG Im guessing its the wiring harness.

 

In regards to the fuel pump priming...you guessed it. No spark equals no fuel. Honda has done this for years via the fuel cut relay. It's probably just as well 'specially on the fuel injected bikes as they can pump alot of fuel into your cylinders adding to your problems.

I really doubt you'll have a problem with the CDI itself...they've proven to be very reliable, so much so that it's about the last thing I expect to find faulty.

Regarding the clutch switch...I'd check the microswitch mounted on the handlebar (activated by the lever itself). I replace 'tons' of both those and the similar brake light microswitch mounted on right brake side. When I inspect those circuits I usually eliminate the switch by unplugging and shorting or opening manually (a paper clip works well). Often they get sticky and work intermittently or you get partial resistance readings. At least they're cheap to replace.

 

Thanks Dizzy,

I was really unsure about the CDI, so I sent it to a bussy of mine in the East Coast, and it tested good. So its still good. Im still converting the the 98-99 PGFI-CDI electronics, do away with the 02 until I start my rebuild and order a Motec.

Also, Too lazy to tear open the wiring harness and trace any shorts, and cant find any 00-01 wiring harness, hence why Im switching to the 98-99.

My PG should be in next week, and Ill post my findings.

I sure hope that since I was not getting voltage nor resistance on the PG wires (yellow and Yellow.White) on the CDI harness side, that could explain why the fuel pump is not priming, (no spark) but lets say there is voltage but still lower then the minimum of .7v, would the fuel pump still prime? Just not start for lack of spark? or the CDI is smart enough to just cut fuel because of this?