steady throttle thru turns questions...

Hi all,

I'm in the process of breaking in a new vfr and I am also brushing up on my riding skills.... I am scheduled for the MSF course next weekend. In the meantime I'm taking it easy and respecting the power of this new machine.. I know it takes awhile to get accustomed to how my new machine handles ect, and I am not leaning the thing over. I'm letting the tire's wear in a bit.

I have read Twist of the throttle II and I'm working through Proficient Motorcycling by David L. Hough. I found T.O.T.T. very techinical and focus on the curves. I found myself kinda overwelmed by this book.. Proficient Motorcyling in my opinion is teaching me more about riding on the street and the things I might encounter. I just find it to be addressing alot of the issues I might encounter, such as stay off the plastic or painted lane indicators and turning lanes. I already Knew that but it is a great heads up...Anyway...

My main question is in both books they say brake before a turn and throttle evenly through the turn... Thats my problem. They insist that it will make you execute the turn faster and with more traction for a variety of reasons.. The theory is very sound and I totally beleive them, but I'm finding myself feeling very uncomfortable in tryin this.. I always feel as though if I give it gas I'll fly over the line and into the oncoming lane... When do you veteran riders get off the break and start to give it gas. And how do you keep the fear triggers down low enough to execute the manouver. And how do you steer into the turn? by leaning,puttin pressure on the peg or countersteering. I have been practicing countersteering and I'm starting to feel pretty comfy.. I havent had to use this is collision avoidance such as a quick C.S. one way then a quick C.S. in the opposite direction..Im starting to ramble so I'll close with those thoughts.. Any advise is very welcome...

 

There's a reason for steady throttle thru the turn. Your front tire has X amount of traction available & it's contact patch is Y. When you enter a turn, the front tire contact patch is now smaller since you're leaning over. Now, you have something less than X traction & the contact patch is less than Y. If you ROLL OFF in a turn, the weight will transfer forward, demanding more traction from the now smaller contact patch. There is the potential to overwhelm the now smaller contact patch. That's why you ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS set your speed before you enter the turn. If you roll on the throttle thru the turn, you send the weight transfer to the rear again. This frees up available traction on the front for steering. Check out Motorcyclist Apr 08, the Street Savvy section.

Enjoy the new bike & congrats for joining the best VFR Forum on the net.

KC-10 FE out...
lane: :usa2:

 

Asking a veteran rider when he gets off the brakes and onto the gas is like asking which pen to use in a pen factory. It depends on the rider's skill, comfort level, how they are feeling that day, what are the road conditions, etc. Remember these 2 sayings, and turns become easy

1) slow in, fast out
2) do body position then brake then turn

As far as fear triggers...I'm guessing you're talking about pucker moments. And well....they don't go away. You just learn from your mistakes and try not to repeat them.

I would forget weighting the pegs...while it can be used on the street, it's not something someone new to riding should be worrying about.

Congrats on the new bike and may you have many happy days of motorcycling

 

Good vise, there you two. Another word that should be under stood is "SMOOTH" on all the controls

 

I can remember my very first time on the bike and turning was the biggest challenge for me. My biggest fear was pushing down TOO hard and hitting the road.

This might help but what I would recommend doing is look for a road that has real gentle curves. Go on that road and make the turn just by shifting your body to the direction of the curve. I can barely turn my bike by tilting my head to the direction of the turn. Don't even push down on the bar. Build up courage by leaning your body.

Do this a lot over and over. With practice you can steadily build up courage to push down on the bar. Once you got the hang of pushing down look for a road that has sharper curves.

On that road don't even try to brake before the turn. Just slow down gradually using the engine as a brake. SMOOTH is the keyword here. Try to make the curve without using the brake at all. Sure you might be going pretty slow but it's better to go too slow than too fast.

Once you build up confidence you can increase your speed before entering the curve and then brake then throttle through the curve.

It's gonna take time to get the hang of it but once you get it, the rewards will be worth it!

 

Well the quick answer to getting on the throttle is read more and take some training classes to help you connet the dots with your initial question.

As far as fear, well I do a couple things. First, I use my imagination that I can make it through any corner no matter what. I picture myself going through the turn smoothly with all the correct techniques. Then I have the faith that is exactly what will happen.

Recently my speeds in corners have been increasing so some of Keith Code's servival reactions are showing up. Mainly stiff arms. I've been through some training that has helped me with this but what I do is take some small soccor cones and set up cornering exercises in a parking lot and have my buddy Jeff watch. Then I get warmed up and start the exercise focusing on correct technique. As I begin to get comfortable I pick up the pace little by little until the survival reaction tries to kick in. I then keep that pace and focus on loosening my arms and once they are loose I add another mile per hour and this assists me in pushing past my fear but keeps me fully focused on correct technique. Jeff will call me over if he sees me performing a mistake. Its amazing how you can be riding crappy and not even no it until someone tells you.

When you do this stuff in a parking lot, the pressure to perform is off and you can focus on whatever you hang ups are. I may be going 35mph at my fastest.

I also do mental exercises like asking myself questions in my head to try train my brain not to freeze like:

What do you do if the front tire slides? Nothing! DO NOT TURN THE HANDLEBARS! Continue rolling slowly on the gas!

What do I do if the rear slides? DO NOT CHOP THE THROTTLE! Stop rolling on the throttle until the back hooks back up or continue rolling on the throttle slowly and evenly until the back hooks back up.

What do I do if the front break locks up! Release immeadiatly then reapply with correct technque!

I say this stuff in my head over and over and these are just a few examples of the crap a rider has to work through.

I'll end with this, take your time learning. Motorcycles are the hardest vehicle to learn to ride on. No one has mastered one fully. Some are close, but even they go down occasionally on the track. Have fun and don't take your set backs personally. If you invest the time you can become a pretty proficient rider. But realize no matter how good you get there will always be someone faster and better AND if you get cocky or have a lapse in judgement a motocycle will quickly remind you who the real master is...

Enjoy and keep the great questions coming!

BZ

 

And seeing as no else mentioned it, Target Fixation. That's your number one enemy...especially in the corners. You go where you look, always. So if you target fixate on the cute chipmunk at the edge of the road....guess where you're going?

It doesn't matter how skilled a rider you are, your name could be Rossi or Hayden, you always have to be conscienous of target fixation. If you can't see where you're going, ride accordingly. Always scan and always ride ahead of yourself.

 

Hey all good vise. Curious though, did you read Twist of the Throttle II or Twist of the Wrist II? Anyway, add to the recommended reading list: Total Control by Lee Parks. I found Lee Parks book good for riding technique along with some great suspension information and explanations. The book is more for Intermediate riders in my opinion and and is good for preparing for a trackday. The book does emphasis body position, supension/setup, and cornering skills. Proficient Motorcycling by Hough is a really good read and like you said is about street riding. It is also a book good for all riders to enjoy. Also in the Lee Parks book is information on ezines, Training Schools, apparel information ect. I read in Lee's book that he does Advanced Rider Clinics. I attended his ARC clinic two years ago, and it totally changed my riding technique (I use to be king of the sweepers). The same year I attended additional training and certified as a Lee Parks ARC Trainer. The Twist of The Wrist II by Keith Code (Sultan of Cornering) book is about Basics of High Performance Motorcycling which does get technical with regard to technique and cornering. Another book more for an Intermediate/Advanced/Track Junkie rider. It has already been summed up technically and literally - slow in/fastout, work on vision/line, body position and throttle control. Transition exercises (figure eight) on the range are great for working on cornering technique and confindence. Congrats on the bike.

 

I use a steadily increasing throttle through most turns; I do this in normal street riding. I agree with the idea on decreasing speed to a point where you can get on the gas very early in the turn. If I am on a track all these actions are exaggerated upward so to speak so to speak. The application of throttle transfers load off the front tire (braking puts load on the front) so I turn in an the get on the gas right away/ JIM

 

Great advise so far on this thread, as you have noticed by now SMOOTH is the key word, if your a noobie be careful with some of this advise because knowledge sometimes can be a dangerous and there is no substitute for time in the saddle. When you get completely comfortable with the VFR try picking the correct line and go through a corner with just the slightest bit of throttle, you'll feel the difference in the suspension and stability versus going through a turn with no throttle, have fun and :welcome: to VFRworld...

 

awesome advise every one is giving. regarding target fixation lost a rider in our group 2 weeks ago to that. he saw the gravel in the middle of a turn just like we all had seen he admitted he paniced looked at the ditch guess where he ended up. came out with ripped pants and a scratched bike ,Lucky. its one of the hardest thing to do is trust your bike &tires and stay focused look where you wanna go. also lean your body to the inside of corner, its surprising how many lean to outside i guess its a natural reaction. before you enter turn set up your body position the further you lean the less the bike has to.the important thing is to stay @your comfort level and gradually increase speed and the confidence will come

 

For a newbie rider, slow down to the speed you want to go into the corner BEFORE you turn the bike.

Once turning the bike, gently increase throttle until you finish the turn.
There are several reasons - here's three.

1. As the bike leans over, the distance from the axle to where the tire meets the road is reduced - effectively reducing your gearing - and slowing you down. You have to increase throttle just to keep going the same speed. You have to increase throttle more just to accelerate.

Distances are not to scale and shown only for demonstration purposes.

2. The optimum weight distribution during a turn is 40% front and 60% rear. Guess what smoothly rolling on the throttle does? It puts 40% weight distribution on the front and 60% weight distribution on the rear.

3. Personal experience/change. I used to keep the same throttle during the turn. This made my line through the turn uneven. I had to keep making small corrections to keep the bike going where I wanted. It wasn't unsettling, just inefficient riding. Rolling on the throttle allows you to stick to the line you intend to travel. The bike is much steadier and instead of the bike choosing your line of travel, you choose the bike's line of travel.

Tip: as you exit the turn, increase the throttle more. This simple fact will stand the bike up. As the bike returns to the upright position, your speed will increase as the distance from the axle to ground increases.

As most track schools say, "Focus on smoothness - speed will follow".

 

Oh, and DON'T chop the throttle off in a turn, even though you think you're goinig too fast. Did anyone mention this? Anyway, it's worth repeating. Instead, it's almost always better get all steely-eyed, keep a steady hand on the throttle and ride that bike through the corner. Your VFR is going to lean A LOT more than you think it will and handle the cornering force. Unless you totally screwed the pooch on the entry, that is . . . .

 

That's a REALLY good explanation and set of advice for the turn. I wasn't consciously aware of rolling the throttle but I "just knew" from practicing over and over to steadily give it gas.

:rockon:

 

Gained most of my knowledge from practicing what I read in Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist II. I re-read it every season and learn and implement something new every time.

 

I've only been riding about 4 years, but the technique I hit on is to use counter-steering to gradually lean the bike into the curve, and start rolling on the throttle while I'm still pushing the bike down, maybe 80-90% of the way into the lean. Adding throttle seems to make everything firm up, and I find I get less panicky since the throttle keeps the bike from dropping into the lean any more than exactly what I want. It also improves your ground clearance a bit and you're less likely to scrape pegs. Don't forget that if the curve transitions to uphill, as terrain-following mountain roads tend to do, you need to add more throttle to compensate.

Also, keep looking through the turn, you should be picking out your exit point from the curve by this point. The curve itself you should have eyeballed before you went into it, when you're in the curve itself you get your info about the road from how the bike feels, don't look down. Looking far down the road and tilting your head to keep it level with the horizon keeps you in tune with how you're doing relative to the overall road, and that's essential to keeping on a smooth line.

Practice, practice, practice! I'm lucky that I have a twisty portion through a park on my daily commute. I can try different things on the same curve until I hit one that feels right. My favorite book on the subject is "Sport Riding Techniques" by Nick Ienatsch.

 

Cornering is a skill I still work on. I use body positioning to control how much I lean the bike over. I have started using a trail braking technique in cornering, which involves using the brake and throttle at the same time. I can enter corners at a much higher speed and lean the bike over good. Working at being smoother. I still say check Lee Parks "Total Control " of Keith Codes "Twist of the Wrist I & II books. Lee Parks clinic for advanced riders is a great course that deal with cornering skills and has an advanced level for trail breaking skills. The next thing is to go to a well organized Track Day. Keith Codes and Kevin Swantz doo Great TrackDays.

 

Is trail braking any harder with the LBS? Just wondering since I'm relatively new and I've started doing it a little and it's helped my turn in confidence quite a bit. I used to play MotoGP quite a bit on the XBOX and discovered trailbraking completely on accident before I ever rode. So I've been applying it on my VFR and it seems to help me turn in just a little bit sharper before the apex.