When is it going to stop???

That was the 300th school shooting since 2013. So don’t think the lock down policy was doing much good. Not much appears to have happened . Yes it’s sad to see but it becoming so regular soon it won’t be worth the network time.

Like you say locking the henhouse after the fox gets in.

Are you saying that I’m not entitled to an opinion? I have friends over there who feel the same way.

 

No, I never said you didn't have an opinion, I was simply asking you what your point was. We have a lot of different state laws presented and passed. Some are good and some are bad. They are all laws of the state they are passed in. If you are against the state law of Florida mandating schools display 'In God We Trust' the Florida state motto, then I expected you to voice your opinion as to why. If your point is in agreement with the headline "Florida House votes to force schools to display 'In God We Trust' a day after refusing to consider gun control", then both you and the headline is wrong, as I have already explained.

I think we both have strayed off topic here, my apology.

 

Yes we both have indeed.

 

I was kidding - that's what the was supposed to indicate...

As far as pornography vs firearms goes, I will concede that accidental discharges for one definitely presents a greater health risk than for the other...

 

The damn government should give everyone who can pass a mental test his own AR-15 so at least there is some kind of real EQUALITY ! No one less than 21 or a convicted felon.

When will it stop ? When ammunition is BANNED............ and beer is free

Keep your guns; let's make possession of ammunition an official ATF fedderal crime ??

Libertarian lovefest here, so many rants, good thinkin' gents, and F- the NRA !

 

Pissing into the wind Fink, individuals right to bear arms is deemed more important than the rights of kids not to be slaughtered whilst getting an education.

 

Every day, 28 people die as a result of drunk driving crashes on average. In 2010, 10,228 people died in drunk driving crashes – one every 52 minutes – and 345,000 were injured. In 2010, people killed in alcohol-impaired driving crashes accounted for nearly one-third (31%) of all traffic-related deaths. https://www.bactrack.com/blogs/expert-center/35040645-dui-statistics Thousands more by texting drivers. Why don't you complain about regulating cars? Common sense car laws. Ban cars, if only one child's life is saved.

Where is your protest against cars? Oh, that's right, we hold the driver responsible, we don't blame the car. Today, twenty eight people died because of drunks. I'm pretty certain your car has an automatic transmission and over 200 horsepower. No one needs that much power. We better pass a bill to regulate your car and your freedom to freely drive, because that's the only way to stop someone else from getting drunk and killing someone. Think of the children.

We better make sure no one in America can have access to a car. Only the police and emergency responders should be able to drive, because they are the only ones responsible enough to do that. You certainly can't be trusted. I can't be trusted. No one can. I better just sell my cars and my motorcycle and the rest of the legal Americans better too because surely we are all horrible people who are just itching to get in our cars completely wasted and kill as many people as we can. Obviously automotive manufacturers are complicit in these tragic deaths and they need to be forced out of business and the 500,000 or more people involved in the auto industry should be held accountable too. Pure evil.

The gun manufacturers sell their products to the millions of peaceful law abiding people who follow the law. Do you have even the smallest idea of the huge amount of regulation already in place? Have you done ANY independent research on your own, or are you just listening to the media?

There used to be a time when innocent had their RIGHTS protected and the guilty were punished.
Sadly, it seems that so many in America want to punish the just while coddling the criminal.

I for one choose to defend the just individual and I will fight any mob rule laws. Our nation was funded as a Republic, wherein our entire system of governance was predicated under the idea that laws are there to protect the rights of the law abiding individual from the madness of mob rule.
The MILLIONS of innocent ethical people should NEVER be punished for the actions of a few psychotic anti- social psychopaths with their brains addled by psychotropic drugs.

The drunk drivers that killed 28 people today isn't your fault. Did your automatic machine kill them? Did you have a psychiatry caused homicidal episode caused by drugs, or did you go about your day today, doing the best you can, to survive, to be happy and to possibly even help someone have just a little better day?

Maybe we should punish you for that.

 

Lint.

I have seen this comparison before and without applying it to the gun debate, I just laugh a bit. Having been a LEO for over 25 years, clearly 1/3 of which was traffic enforcement and Traffic Accident Investigation, contrary to what so many people think, even here, Traffic Enforcement is not a revenue generator for Provincial or State coffers. I believe it is a revenue loosing thing when you take into account the cost of violation disputes. The very common statement given to LEOs doing traffic work is along the lines of "Why don't you got out and catch real criminals instead of harassing normal people."

Traffic laws are in place to keep the traffic flowing smoothly. That reduces the risk of collisions. You reduce collisions and you reduce the instances of high value property damage, injury and death. If every driver followed the law and focussed proper attention on their driving, there would not be any collisions. Except possibly instances involving wildlife. Even weather related collision should be able to be prevented by someone involved in that collision.

I have researched statistics here in Canada using the most recent Statistics Canada data. In Canada, police gather and report data to StatsCan on every file they work. According to their most recently available stats, traffic collisions account for more deaths per year in Canada than all other criminal activity. The phentanol issue may be reaching a point that it is getting close. I would be willing to bet, in the USA, Great Britain and most other places in the civilized world, we would find the stats to be similar. Think. Breaking traffic laws accounts for more death than all other crimes. Yet! When people get pulled over for breaking traffic laws, they think or say, "why don't you go after the real criminals instead of harassing me?" And the traffic officer is the worst person in the policing world.

Sorry for the hijack of this "Gun/no gun" thread. It is not directed at you specifically, but the mindset of so many people.

Rant over. Everyone may now carry on with their arguments.

 

Randy, I think your post actually feeds Lint's point

My observation has been that many people whom think they are "normal", to speed to a certain level, making rolling stops, fail to signal a turn, cut it close between a yellow and red, cut assured clear distance when changing lanes, etc. have become the "norm" in many areas. Not everyone of course, but many. And I think most of them do not see themselves as the problem that may cause an accident. We have compounded the problem of an accident while using the term "accident" rather than "negligence". Most crashes are caused by negligence, they are not accidental.

Although driving is considered a privilege, I think most actually consider it a right. I will not argue that point, but most people are not going to give up driving simply because 10,000 people die every year from drunk drivers, no more than people are going to stop drinking, yet we all stand by and consider the risk of driving is so much lower than the reward, that we would not consider banning driving or cars. That would include both people that don't drive and people that don't drink! We are not going to support any legislation that would put undue burden on our privilege/right to drive. We are not going to give up our "freedom" to own and exercise our cars!

 

I knew it would come across that way but I posted it anyway as his post brought my thought to mind. But that does not change my opinion on gun possession and I doubt there is anything that can be said that will change that. And this is exactly what has been going on in the USA for such a long time, that I don't think there will ever be a change in ownership and possession.

I have travelled to the USA more times than I can remember. I feel safe and welcomed there whether I possess a gun or not. I saw a graph recently showing the deaths associated to guns comparing several countries. Canada runs second to the USA. But roughly 1/20th as much. Lately, here in BC, the gun deaths have mostly been in the gang or organized crime population. But there has been innocent deaths as a result of this gang conflict.

Now it is time for me to bow out of this before I find new enemies.

 

Randy I understand if you don't reply, I feel on thin ice as well. The statistics are revealing when you drill down, the huge majority are suicide and crime/gang related.

 

Mental health is the common theme in all of these shootings. Reminds me when this came out after Sandy Hook. The genie is out of the bottle here in the states. tens of millions of them. I do think there has to be some sort of licensing, testing, ,mental health checks, background checks and age limits. All these shooters have had mental problems and been on anti psychotic drugs, even the older guy in Vegas. You can't drive a car without training, a license and insurance. But a 18 year old can walk in and buy an AR, something wrong there.

 

Hey Randy, I've also seen a number studies where the data reflects an inverse proportionality between traffic enforcement and accident rates (i.e. the higher the number of tickets that were issued, the lower the number of accidents that were reported). IMO, traffic enforcement is a completely necessary part of law enforcement. I wouldn't say that traffic units/personnel are the worst - the saying "it's a dirty job but someone has to do it" definitely comes to mind. Every ticket I've ever received, I've deserved. Every time I've ever been pulled over, it's always been righteous. Even now, if/when I'm pulled over, I'm respectful and apologetic because something I was/wasn't doing was in violation and caused the contact/stop. I definitely couldn't work as a traffic unit or for the CHP lol. As you've probably seen and Eagle Six alluded to, the pisspoor attitude/lack of responsibility of so many people (even from normal/regular or well-educated folks) when it comes to driving is just amazing. I think what might be worse than enforcing traffic is Directing traffic...

 

I'm not arguing against the point you are making in your post, but would like to point out what I think is an error, or at least there are exceptions (isn't there almost always an exception!). Just in my nearby area of metro Phoenix, it is my observation that most of what we would consider terrible automobile crashes (multiple fatalities) are caused, by unlicensed, uninsured and most likely untrained drivers. They are quite often illegal aliens who are by default practicing as an illegal by driving on our roadways unlicensed and uninsured and many times drunk.

I agree mental health is a common theme and is just as difficult to address as an illegal alien, even though there are easy measures we can take to address the illegal alien, our society is struggling with those easy fixes and will therefore continue to struggle with the mental health issue. It requires a major change in what our culture has become and I don't think America is ready for that change back to our values of life and liberty.

 

I agree there are a lot of people driving without being legal (I don't think that most crashes are illegal drivers though) but every layer you can put up to make it harder for the idiots who do things like this makes it better. Are bad guys going to care if there are more gun laws? No, but it might make it harder for a nut job who is 18 to walk in and buy an AR.

 

More kids die from texting while driving crashes than ever before. You should only be able to drive and own a damage when you're 21.

If the FBI and the cops did their job, using EXISTING laws, this shooting never would have happened.

 

Yes I would agree

that is why I specified multiple fatality in the Phoenix metro area, which you may also think is not a majority, but from what is reported it is very common.

I don't necessarily disagree with raising the age to purchase from a dealer, but would feel more comfortable with it if we also raised the minimum age to drive from 16 to 21, the minimum age to vote to 21, and the minimum age to serve in the armed forces to 21, and make parents responsible for their children until the children are 21. But their is that part in the US Constitution that reads "shall not be infringed". Many Americans would view raising the age to be an infringement, as it has been long standing that children are of people age when turning 18.

And, the flip side is, there are other means for a nut case 18 year old to get a gun other than purchasing from a dealer.

 

This deserves repeating

 

I don't know all the details but from multiple articles from multiple news sources (and I don't trust the media as far as I can throw them), it certainly does sound like things broke down on Many levels. That being said, the mental illness side of it is not as black/white, cut/dried as people might think (or should be). The very rights (including the "rights" to own guns, to drive, to participate in dangerous activities, to smoke, to drink, to live as a transient, to make one's own choices as an adult, etc) that some say make this country great, the ones that we value so much and have become accustomed to, also make it difficult sometimes to take proactive measures against certain things. Without any hard data or studies to back it up, it FEELS like within the past 10 years, mentally ill related problems have multiplied 10-20 fold or more. Sometimes it feels like we're getting weaker as a species. Anyway, sometimes steps can be taken. Other times, people (whether it be family members, health care professionals, public safety personnel, etc) have to wait until certain things have happened or certain boxes are checked before anything can be done.

I was jaw jacking with a couple of guys about mental illness and 5150 holds and stuff like that a month or so ago and I was remarking on how often people are taken in for a 72 hour hold but are then released only after a few hours (e.g. less than 6-8 hours). One guy said that he had heard from one of his friends who works in the field that even if someone claims they are suicidal, they won't hold him/her unless they have a plan for harming/killing themselves.

I don't believe that people should be required to wait for law enforcement to "come save the day". LEOs are human too and often suffer from the same faults and foibles (even though they've been through backgrounds and training) AND, even moreso, there's a legit reason for the paraphrased sentiment 'there never seems to be a cop around when you need one' - there aren't enough LEOs around to begin with (remember the expression "I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy"?). (BTW, Randy's personal beliefs and feelings about firearms makes it, IMO, that much more impressive and admirable that he became and worked a full career as an LEO!)

Gordon Graham (and others) says "predictable is preventable". It sounds like this case was both. OTOH, I don't believe every evil act is predictable or preventable. Evil finds ways. If not by this method, then by another. ISIS has been calling on their believers to use vehicles and knives - things that are easy to get - to kill all non-believers. We've seen some of that already here in the US and I think we're gonna see more, especially if we allow what's been happening to Europe to (continue to) happen here. "Good security is not convenient." The openness and freedoms of our county, our society, make us a relatively soft target, pretty much everywhere. People don't want to be inconvenienced. People don't want to be delayed. A lot of people believe the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many - all the time, no matter what. I think the vast majority of these types of incidents have happened at places where guns aren't allowed to begin with (as a POS bad guy looking to get the highest body count, would you rather start shooting in the middle of a gang neighborhood or police station/army base OR would you go somewhere where guns aren't allowed?) Btw, when's the last time you saw an open carry supporter make their statement in the middle of Compton or Watts or any other gang area? ha

I agree with Gator - you can't unring a bell. Guns are out there already. I also believe the comment that NRA Wayne LaPierre made, when was it, back in 2012? "The only thing that will stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun." Good Guy, not good cop or good soldier, etc. Plenty of good guys have been in the right place at the right time and have been instrumental in stopping evil. Unfortunately, some have also been killed trying to protect themselves and/or their fellow members of society.

Lint brought up existing laws. IMnshO, penalties/punishments for violating existing laws are neither swift enough nor severe enough. I think people do the "right thing" for 2 main reasons - they either believe the "right thing" to do is the right thing to do and do it OR they are afraid of the repercussions for getting caught doing the "wrong thing". There's not enough negative reinforcement in our justice system so criminals don't have a whole lot of reason for Not changing their ways. A lot of the country, especially California, is soft on crime/criminals. A lot of people are pro rights, pro freedoms, even for the mentally ill.

George Carlin had a bit where he said that anyone driving slower than him was an idiot and anyone driving faster than him was a maniac. I think gun control is kinda like that. There is no absolute definition or set parameters for gun control (except for everyone gets one or no one gets one - and neither of those are likely to happen) and everyone's vision of what constitutes gun control or what is allowable and what isn't is going to vary. Even for a "simple" question like, how many rounds of ammo is reasonable/sufficient and how many rounds is excessive/too much (or how many is too little)? I'm not against good decent productive members of society possessing firearms. I would like to see background checks and I would like to see mandatory training. Even then, it doesn't guarantee that someone who was "normal" when they bought a gun ends up going crazy or joining ISIS the following year - stuff can happen.

One of the problems I have with gun control (among so many other topics) is that the people writing the laws or pushing the agendas are all too often, FUC&ING IDIOTS!



Btw, read CA's gun laws sometime if you want to see enacted stupidity! One example - AR15/M16 bad - Mini 14/30 OK. (so even if a student wasn't able to buy an AR15/AK47, he/she could still buy a firearm that shoots the same ammo, semi-auto, with the same ammunition capacity, etc). Franchi SPAS 12 bad, Benelli OK. Etc ad nauseam...

 

I was not going to chime in but I will say this, I did not own a gun until an unstable coworker shot me and you can not have my guns now.