Being robbed

But that is just it, ir you read what you said about supply hasn't changed, but the demand goes up. In a free market, it is all about supply and demand, if demand goes up and the supplies can't/won't/don't go up, then the price will go up.

The record profits could still be in line, percentage wise with what they were making before. And I don't actually know that it is or isn't. But if they were say making 20 cents a gallon, when it was a dollar a gallon, and now with it at $3 if they are making say, 60 cents a gallon (over simplifying and just using rough numbers for ease), well then their percentage of profit or markup hasn't really changed, just the base price, and yet they would have record profits. Heck, even if they lowered their mark up percentage and say now made 50 cents a gallon, well that still would be a lot more than the 20 cents they made when gas was just $1.

You also have the idea that the profit and income of a company should always ideally go up. Doesn't mean they are in cahoots with their competition. Did say Coke have a record year last year? Does that mean they are ripping people off?

for that matter, what is the profit margin or markup of most consumer goods compared to gasoline? is it out of line with the average?

I know when I worked retail, and this was a long time ago, the average markup from manufacture to retail for clothing was said to be 400%. What is it for gas?

Who decides what is a fair profit and what isn't. If they can get a buyer at $x, then it is a fair price.

I am a bleeding heart liberal, but the idea of regulating an industry, without proof or even a really good inkling that something is going wrong, strikes me as not making much sense. We live in a country with an economy based on capitalism after all. We need to accept that with all the pros and cons that come along with it; or change it all together, not just for one industry.

There seems to be, at least on the surface, plenty of competition. My commute is 25 miles, and I probly pass within a mile of 20 gas stations from at least half a dozen different vendors, likely more.

 

But where is the Hydrogen to come from? as I understand it, the energy used to get it, uses up quite a bit of the energy created. Yes, it is abundant, but usually attached to something else that has to be removed somehow.

the 1906 earthquake had a lot to do with the demise of the street cars in SF too, plus the growing affordability of personal cars, and the advent of city buses which had a little more freedom of movement than the street cars

 

So you are saying you are against profit taking when you are on one side of the equation; but enthusiastically for it, when the only thing that has changed is what side you are on? Isn't that a bit hypocritical.

 

the problem is that the technology isn't there, there are people working on it, the world over

Germany didn't have nuke power at any point before the end of the war, and wasn't even close to the bomb. They were working on it, although not super aggressivley, but their is a myriad of reasons for that, not just they didn't imagine the war going on so long. They desperately wanted it though, but a lot of people also thought it was simply impossible.

Wasn't that ship sunk? by sabatuers? or am I thinking of another ship?

Isn't this the one where they used the bouncing bomb to try to take out the damn above the heavy water plant? Or am I getting confused on my history?

 

There have been multiple congressional investigations into the idea of price gouging and fixing, nothing has ever turned up. If there was even a whiff of actual proof, or a whistle blower of any sort, you don't think the general press would be all over it? Any company to break that story with actual facts, would have a BIG feather in its cap. And the reporter(s) that broke the story would be regarded as heros, on the scale of Woodward and Berstein.

and yes, 'cause the repubs did soooo much more about any of it

 

Spike, without a doubt you and I are on completely opposite ends of political spectrum. I find it rather unique for a self described “bleeding heart liberal” to take such a stark, black and white look at this issue and just label it “capitalism”. Our economy is not completely free, hasn’t been since the birth of this Nation. Why are other regressive goods/costs regulated, such as utilities? Because people need those kinds of things to survive and the people who are impacted the most by those costs are the middle class and below. No doubt, this is a complex issue – probably why there are almost 100 posts on this thread alone.

I doubt you and I would ever see eye to eye on much, and we’re free to disagree. I’m not going to get into a long winded diatribe on this stuff, it ends up hitting too close to my profession and I visit this site, after all, to get my mind off work and onto my favorite hobby.

Fun thread though, overall – but I’m ready for some VFR talk really. Hey, what generation VFR is best again? I keep forgetting. :biggrin:

 

nice general comment about a group of people that are actually widely diverse

and there are actually some die hard right wing republican Prius drivers, a very significant number actually
anecdotally maybe 30-40%
some even that say any real conservative would drive a hybrid
as our incredible reliance on oil is a very real danger to our country and way of life -- on many levels
some don't care a whiff about the environmental stuff

I was surprised too

even one of Reagan's advisors drives a Prius, what is his name Woolsey? Worked for Reagan, Bush I, and Clinton. Military advisor stuff and then eventually head of the CIA

 

accept no sub...

and nice spelling of ghey too

 

$125 in a week! I spent about $160 a month last year (taking vacation use out)

 

exactly, and for most of us, it is a very small part of our overall household budget
the guy I mentioned earlier, who has the Yukon and complains about the cost of gas all the time? 4 days a week he leaves, drives to Starbucks, and gets some late'/mocha thing and a muffin/croisant thing
we make our choices

remember a year or so ago, when there was one of the previous spikes in gas prices, someone complaining that their son, who was supposed to visit over a holiday weekend, and called to say he wasn't coming, because the price of gas made it too expensive (drove a brand new 4Runner), that it was going to cost him like $70 or something
I sat down and did the math, really his son wasnt' visiting him for like $15, that was the difference between what he would have paid, and what he was going to pay as part of the $70 was always going to be part of it, the increase was substantially less, and as we were guessing on some stuff to do that math, we always went with a worst case scenario

Spike

 

why would that prove it? what would you suggest as an appropriate amount of profit?

 

Unfortunately the problem is Global demand is not static but skyrocketing. The supply once Peak Oil is reached ( though some say it has already been reached ) will slowly go down, it would an easy graph to draw, line go's high to low on the oil availablility side and low to high on the demand and price side....

Bio fuel is no answer, the Global demand for it once ground oil runs dry would be much higher than what can possibly be grown, hydrogen fuel cells may be a partial answer in fresh water rich countries that develope a incredibly cheap renewable electricty source though don't know what the effects of destoying water on a huge scale will have over a long time period ???

Oil companies are just profiting while they can and if they stretch out their revenue source for as a long as possible while maintaining current profits why wouldn't they ?

While no greenie consider myself a realist in seeing this coming, 3 years ago traded my large 4*4 in for a 2.3litre four cylinder wagon for the wife and bought myself a European 1.6 litre 3 door manual hatch for our families shopping and city driving, miss out? no way I've re-discovered the fun of driving cars that are light, handle and rev while using 1/2 the amount of GAS. :biggrin:

Unfortunately think even they will feel like gas guzzlers in another 3 years time. :frown:

 

actually HUGE pockets
and seemingly getting deeper all the time

I love when people are talking about the price of gas, or just happen to ask what I drive, and when I say a Prius, a lot of people remark how lucky I am
huh?
it isn't like the thing fell into my garage
I went out and bought it, I made the choice to buy it, it isn't luck
I made it happen

I couldn't live week to week, just isn't in me
had to do it as a kid, my whole childhood virtually, won't do it now
and fight like heck to avoid it

 

correct, but living in a fairly well to do area, a lot of people still complain about the price

but most of us on here, not all, but most, have at least some disposible income, to devote to the hobby of motorycling
very few of us seem to use the VFR as our main and only mode of transport
so it is a luxury expense

 

liberal but realist about where I live and the ideals behind it

and I beleive in personal responsibility for those that are adult and not incapacitated mentally

I just don't see gas as a right, sorry
highly desireable, sure
a right, no
life, liberty, pursuit of happiness sure
would even add water, freedom from crime, basic housing, basic & adequit (sp?) medical care, maybe a few others
but not gasoline
I don't think it is really black and white, rather it is more complex than most would beleive, realize or at least post
to say it is just a flat out grab of a few people and/or companies to commit criminal acts, without facts, just seems wrong to me

and if we regulate gasoline, where does it stop
who determines what is a reasonable profit for any company, to make on any product? that is not necessary for life?
you?
me?
congress?
the general population thru a vote?

oh, wait, we already sort of do that last one there, with the idea that we vote with our wallets, if we think it is too much, we make choices to potentially reduce our usage
as our usage drops, the demand drops, and so will prices (within reason)
and as our usage drops, we are less affected by any changes to boot, a win win as they say

 

The is no right to have gas. But there is a right to come and go as you wish. And without a car (because some have taken the stance that driving isn't a right) seems to hinder that. I believe in personal responsibility too and with that comes the right to protect yourself live your life and using whatever technology available if you want to. And I think that driving these cars and trucks isn't the problem its when you have to fill it up that it becomes a mess.

 

I agree with VaRollOn in that the taxes needed for all the government give-a-ways is going to cripple the economy. The political pandering by our representives just for the sake of a vote will be the downfall of the US. Just like the price of gas, there is a limit to the amount of tax we can endure before we all drowned in debt.

I've done my part towards personal responsibility, I sold my beloved H3 so that my wife could buy an Altima hybred. Now I have to drive the Caddy instead!
With that being said, I think the hybred's aren't all it's cracked-up to be. I'm not seeing all that much improvement over a none hybred. At least what I expected. On the first tank of gas I think my wife got around 35 mpg running the AC here in the desert. Maybe it will get better, we will see.

 

Hey Spike how does your prius run in -30*f weather?

 

Spike:

I like your comment about "any real conservative" would drive a hybrid. As a conservative myself I have to fully agree with that POV. WHY? Because the conservative is not only concerned with individual liberties, but the conservative realizes certain 'choices' one makes may not benefit the nation he/ she loves. "Conservation" of resources is one of the true conservative values. One of the last great Republican Presidents, Teddy Roosevelt, introduced that concept to our nation at a time when industry was sucking resouces dry and destrying our national treasures (I know Teddy was a racist prick, but I'll focus on the good). Anyway, the point is many of my so called conservative friends buy vehicles they do not need and complain. And when I say something like: Why don't you buy something that gets better gas milage or maybe a hybrid? The response is: "What? One of those pussy liberal vehicles" Since when did the vehicle someone drives defines their political affiliation. When we are in that frame of mind my American brothers and sisters it is time to throw in the fucking towel now because its over before it started.

Spike is right, he chose to puchase a vehicle that comsumes less fuel. He has the ability and resources to do so and it should be recognized as a wise choice.

That's what I harped on in my earlier post "We" are the problem. Our nation has people from all political affiliations making choices that are not beneficial to America's future.

Are the oil companies the issue? Maybe. Is OPEC the issue? Again, maybe.

But the ultimate responsibilty falls on us the consumer. So next time you are making a vehicle purchase. Wash your hands of the guilt and buy the vehicle you "need" and not the one you don't.

On the lighter side of things. Jaymz, you need to calm down my V4 brethren. No one on this thread has said "ban 4x4's or SUV's". I am from upstate PA, near Erie, and I know about snow and bad weather that lasts more than a few days. In Maine, a 4x4 has a legitimate purpose. It will actually be used. So I would never bag on you for owning such a vehicle. However, my POV comes from the fact that I moved to the DC metro area and lived their for 6.5 years and 'tons' of people owned 4x4's and SUV's when they are not needed. We would get maybe two good snows the whole year. And the snow generally didn't last. What really fries my ass is these people drive vehicles that help drive gas demand up, which in turn hurts the people who really need the vehicles, like yourself.

OK, I've had enough, I'm getting the ultimate revenge. I'M WALKING TO WORK!

BZ
The change starts at home folks

 

Bubba,
Only reason I get hot under the collar is when I feel someone post about me like they have all the answers and that I choose to live the way I do. To a point they are correct but alot of things are beyond my control example getting used to living a certain lifestyle and then losing my $70k+ a year job and going to a $20+ a year job with the same obligations and bills. Am I suposed to trade my truck in for a loss and have a higher payment than I have now for a vehicle that gets a little better gas milage? I don't think so.

I respect and applaud the people that drive hybrids and wish more people would. One of the reasons I got my bike was to save gas and in the summer it is my main mode of transport. This year my budget is so tight with the new baby that I can't even afford to put it on the road because the cost of the R/R and other parts that I need I can't afford. It kills me coming on here everyday and reading the posts of people that are enjoying the nice riding, but those are the breaks and there's not much I can do about it.
I love my Interceptor and will never part with it unless someone offers me mega bucks for it. And I can't afford to buy a new bike either so I'm stuck driving my gas guzzling beast of a truck everyday.
I really mean no ill will to anyone I just wish that people could understand that everything isn't black and white.