Bagging on FRAM?????

Take a look at this.

PureONE Flow vs. PSID Data from Purolator - Bob Is The Oil Guy

It is very cool that Purlator KNOWS how their filters flow and are happy to share the data. Everything I keep finding says that for the money, the Purolators are GREAT!

I also found this.

SAE Oil Filter Test


Another good thread that relays info. about absolute filtration abilities of P1's.

Oil filter micron rating - Bob Is The Oil Guy


Is that enough science to redeem all the "opinion" in this thread?


When I put it into a "laymans terms" description, it sounds like while the SS filter is rated at 35 micron absolute on a single pass test, it would let things smaller than 35 micron run through all day long, with zero filtration in a multi pass situation (real world scenario in your engine). The P1 will let between .1% - 3% more particles of 35 microns get through, but will filter from 97% - 99.9% MORE material in sizes smaller than 35 microns but stuff smaller than 10 microns becomes kind of a crap shoot.

I have also come to understand that the SS filter has only a 1 psi. pressure increase across the filtering medium. The oil pumps in our engines (I understand it applies to "most" hi-po motorcycle engines) would not produce more than a 10GPM flow. The P1 would have about a 3-4 psi. pressure increase across the medium at maximum flow in engines like ours and it has a motorcycle correct 18 psi bypass pressure.

Now here is text I found that I consider worth not linking, but actually printing in full for everyone to read.

Soooooo.... I'm going to be blunt here. What it looks like to me is that if it makes you feel better to have a REALLY cool and expensive filter on your bike, the K&P is a well engineered piece of bling that does a decent job of filtering a lot of stuff. In comparison, it looks like the P1 (and other high quality filters with similar qualities) will do a better job at filtering particles in a critical size range (10 - 20 microns) as the oil continues to cycle in your engine. This has been a really good intellectual exercise for me and quite informational. I am quite convinced that while the SS filters are nifty and look really cool, they are lacking in some key perfomance features that make a Purolator P1 a better and much less expensive choice.

Jose

Jose

 

Any excuse to buy more tools is gud fer me :smile: I use stock Honda Filters and Stock Kawi ones anywHOooo///

 

If I decide to fly to Seattle and visit, are you gona hook a brotha up? :bro: ????

 

I guess that's OK but do you drag the floorboards on the baggers too? Both sides? LOL

Seems to me since I've had the "Scotts" filter on the now even more famous mach 1 91 for about 10-12 years. I paid a little over a hundred bucks for the thing. I'd dig up the invoice to be specific but numbers don't seem to be your particular forte'.

Ahem!

I love my Harley-Davidson
I love it like my life
I even love it bette than I even love my wife
I love to lubricate it
And grease it up real good/
I'd really like to fuck it
Oh would that I could.

Your harleydood buds may like my little poem but it may curtail your free rides some in the long run.

 

Damn! I thought all you guys using stock filters from Korea sawed them off to so ya'll could mike the particles.

 

Its really funny as fuck that I leant my HD best friend/BFFE...some stupid nome-enchlechture...my weed eater and he didnt return it in its pristine condition, (i hose down my stuff and spray it with WD 40 0r something) I aint raggin on my buddy, cause he rides all kinda chit/mind yah/he has a klassik Katana 1100 and some old school Gixxers along with a R1 and some other junk. And you know the scenerio when you bitch to a mechanid??? you get no satisfation...\\\\

You got me started Badbilly.....sawwy...its all your fault....

 

Great data from Purolator, but can we really be assured that that Bob the oil guy isn't the Purolator dude?

In a less scientific analogy I am, without reservation, absolutely convinced that ya might get much the same story line from a Harley salesman.

 

I knew one doode that ended up chopping one of his fingers off seperating an oil filter! just food for thought...NO SupA-CharGer anti-dotes Pull-Esse

 

I can hook you up with Seattle's most famous stripper and lap dancer extrordinaire, the renowned Miss Kitty Litter.

 

I've always thought of the stainless mesh filter as bling item, this is simply because you'd have to use that reuse that filter like how many oil changes to even break even? Probably way past the motors lifespan. You'd probably have to do 75-100k miles for you to break even with a ordinary HiFlo filter.

 

I use the standard Puolator L series. Have used other filters including the Pure One series filter I found with the Pure One PL series filters I had a flow problem at startup and for a bit after. I switched to the L series (standard) filter and issue went away.
Purolator has lots of of available data on their site and they also do not recommend the PL seriese for motorcycles and other smal engines.

Prolator does sell an M series filter and recommends it for motorcycles but it is not made by them. It Is sub contracted off shore and is not built to the same standards of L and PL filters.

Believe it or not, Honda expects their own filter bypass valve to open at startup to prevent dry start conditions. I wish I could find the literature but it was in an old rider magazine where they had an article on why you should use OEM filters. (this is true for mfg of cars and other bike mfgs) the bypass vale is used at startup (unfiltered oil) and or if the filt can't pass a reasonable amount of oil and the pressure builds.

I think many people including ones on this thread concerned about micron size of particulate filtration would be surprised at how often unfiltered oil is run through the engine.

Many companies (labels) don't make the filter they either OEM Chanion or Bocsch filters.

WIX / NAPA. Make a decent filter and they have a nifty bypass valve design to boot.

 

In a basic Google search "honda motorcycle oil filters" the header ads have them rounded off at twelve bucks a pop. Shipping and handling? maybe, maybe not.. So that is roughly thirteen oil changes if ya change the filter each time. Honda sez change the oil every 3k miles so we got 3,000mi X 13 oil changes. 39k is hardly the useful engine life of at least my now very famous mach 1 91.

Using Rotella I do stretch that 3k figure some..

Retail for a januwine Honda filter is probably in the area of 15-16 bucks with the local politbureaucrat's and Uncle Sam's cut. Sooo, even at 12 bucks a pop if ya change filters ya got 12bucks X 13 oilchanges making it about even money for the SS filter in less than 40k miles.



BTW right at 70 k miles on the ever increasing famous mach 1 91 and damned if it ain't still running real good even with that piece of shit SS filter.

Blessed is bling!

I'm thinking maybe the way to go is have the dude who is de-linking his brakes figure out how to make filters from old water bottles and Qtips for $ .99 ea. Or if we go by Metallcan's PC filter price of ???? "on sale". the numbers do crunch with only a few unknowns cranked in for the sake of the true believers.

Heres a question for the dudes who think these SS filters are on the order of canned chicken backs. With the number of those teeenyweenie holes in the filter itself how much crap would it take to plug that puppy up short of pouring sand in the engine? In another quest for knowledge, it seems one of those paper filters of unknown make and manufacture might be a little close to the headers on a VFR..

Next we may hear from somebody who has inside info that K&P is a front for Honda who wants us to blow up our engines so they can sell us more motorcycles and filters.

 

No need to worry about justifying your bling items to anyone, people. I want to make a clear clutch cover. I know it won't improve performance (although it will let me save a few hundred replacing a broken/rashed cover), but I think it looks good on the bike and it doesn't matter if anyone else doesn’t. There is no arguing that “fact”. I can always SHARE my OPINION that I don't think something is attractive, but my opinion is no more or less "right" than yours. So roll your own and as Bas Rutten would say (you BETTER know who Bas is - pansies) DISFRUTEN DE LAS FIESTA!!!!!

That said, I am a seriously curious monkey and I do enjoy discussing research that helps me gain a greater understanding of things. Flow vs. protection is the argument at all times with oil filters. I am convinced (because I saw enough literature agree), that that the engine itself is the biggest limitation to flow and that media flow restriction is not an issue AT ALL when using high quality paper or mixed media filters. To my understanding, the REAL concern is just how much particulate in the 10-20 micron range the filter is actually catching/holding. If you can show me RESEARCH saying that particulate in the 10-20 micron range is an insignificant factor, then the current generation of super duper SS filters might just be "the best" choice. Until then, a filter that WILL ABSOLUTELY ALLOW 10-20 micron sized particles to pass through and cycle freely in your engine looks like a bad choice for engines run on the street. Unless you really dig the bling factor and that is your primary reason for purchase. In that case, re-read the first paragraph of this post …. and learn about Bas Rutten. You pansie!!! :chaingun:

BadBilly - You are giving us a very “harleydood” response. It isn’t Bob himself posting and arguing the data and hydrodynamics principles in question. If you doubt the logic and conclusions of people who look to be rather knowledgeable about filtration technology and the veracity of research and performance data posted, then I suggest you put in the leg work to challenge the research. I would appreciate learning alternate facts and seeing them discussed by knowledgeable people. Saying “I question the data and its sources” is meaningless if you don’t have facts to back you up ... bro! otstir::argue2:

Bitterpill - Configuring the bypass valve to allow flow at startup is an interesting idea. I would also love to see the literature on that. I will dig around and see if I can find anything about it. I can see where that would be an issue on a horizontally mounted filter (that was the case on my V45 Sabre), but I don’t understand how that could make a difference for our engines that have a vertically mounted filter. The filter will always be full of oil and I can’t see the 1-4 psi. (or so) pressure differential across the media making an impactful difference during the milliseconds of comparable delay it might take to gain safe operating pressure. Keep in mind that the pump flow looks to be consistent, it is the pressure differential that is the concern before/after the filter. Oil doesn't compress, so as long as it is flowing it will get to where it needs to go be, despite a slightly higher back pressure. I suppose the only way to REALLY test would be to have a flow meter on the oil cooler feed line (yet another potential restriction to flow) and run startup tests using different filters and also with some kind of bypass that lets you run without a filter.

Jose

 

It's not as much configured to open as it is expected to.

 

Is that people in general or some form of "my people" ? My question would be could Bas have whupped Mohammed Ali? Second question, did you miss the chitchat about a clear clutch cover?

To dispute that representatives of companys that make, distrubute or sell would come on a public and yes ,worldwide forum and not tout thier own bread and butter products is not a conclusion with solid footing and shows once again that you may have gotten a passing grade in highschool debate but really have little experience.

As we can recall your first posts here were some hand wringing about your family and your bike or it's color? I can appreciate as well as anyone some parental advice up to a point but on your bike? Hopefully this does not extend to your selection of filters too.

As you can readily see, all that cutting and pasting becomes moot when BP turned what you interpreted as valid, upside down. Perhaps a little more by guys like Kevin Cameron and less by Bob the oil guy would be of greater benefit.

Harleys ? Yep, rode one for a season, bought a new one once, and have custody of an old timer that will see it's final days in a museum. One of my best buds is a sales manager at a HD store. Rides a 55 K, a couple of "Italian" HD's and a bevel drive Duc.

I think you need to do a little more of that research to distinguish between folks that ride Harleys and "harleydoods." Know too that there are more than a few "hondadoods" out there too.

 

First and most important here. Muhammed Ali is arguably the greatest boxer there ever was and yes, Bas would kick the shit out of Ali. If you know about interactions between Ali and Joe Lewis (the martial artist), it points out why Ali would lose in a real fight with a comparable level kick boxer. Bas is amongst the best there has been in full contact kick boxing. Look up Daniel Ghita. He is a current generation fighter who would also kick the living shit (literally) out of Ali. In a pure heavyweight boxing match it's Ali. Using all their skills, it's no contest. A kickboxer beats the shit out of a boxer.

I did see the chitchat about the clear covers. SebSpeed did a really nice job, but he won't sell the parts kits for you to weld. I like to do my own welding and have an idea for how you could make your own clear cover with simple tools and readily accessible parts. If I can figure it out, I will post up a thread showing process and suppliers.


Now, as to your ad-hominem attack BadBilly. When I first came here I did in fact share my thoughts about the color of my bike and some musings related thereto. You see, I consider a forum an actual community, which although virtual is still a place where we CHOOSE TO SPEND our time and should value the input of its members. Your comment about "parental advice" makes it sound like you consider yourself an expert of some kind. I have been a member of CB1100f.net since 2003. We talk a lot of shop about mechanical issues, because those engines were the first generation of Honda DOHC engines. I started my metal machining, fabrication and mechanical training over 30 years ago, along with being trained as a diesel mechanic in the Corps. I am no newcomer to ICE or related technical discussions. I also work in a field (IT-Network/Systems administration and programming) where research and knowledge are sometimes independent of certifications and degrees. If you lack the ability to see value in cogent research and discussion, I can't help you dude. You will have to "learn to learn" on your own. What I can tell you is that this is the only time I will respond cogently to childish, ad-hominem attacks. If you expect interaction or dialogue with me, put your comments down intelligently, considerately and respectfully.

Or make it really clear you are being a fuckstick, so that I know I can act like a douche bag too and it's all in good fun.

BP - I do realize that Purolator buys/renames a cheap, third party filter and officially recommends that for motorcycle use. I stated earlier that for motorcycles with horizontal installations, I get the concerns. I also can see a liability reason for sticking to the OEM standards in a cross referenced and recommended filter. BadBilly conveniently ignores that on the links I posted there are more than 10 different people weighing in with opinions, theoretical hydrodynamic analysis and experiences contrary to yours. I want to be clear that not even ONCE did I say that the information I found clearly turns "what BP interpreted as valid, upside down". My research and the data I found very well might disagree with your experience, but I would like to hear about what kind of flow problems you ran into, as I haven't tried the P1 on a bike. Seems like we both don't dig the SS filters, nor do we like cheap ass paper filters. However, we might have some info. to swap about what we consider a good, high end paper or mixed media filter.

Jose

 

Bro HiFlo filters for the Vfr is $4.72 a pop. I can buy 10 for less then 50 bucks and I'd be good for 30k miles of motoring. I still don't see any real benefit to a mesh filter, I mean a $130 tea strainer for a oil filter? Bah! I'll stick with traditional oil filter thanks.

 

Dude... I certainly hope you don't think I'm only commenting on your posts. I am just posting information. I wasn't saying "you weren't aware" purolator farmed out the M series off shore. I'm merely posting about What I use, what I have used and why I changed to what I use along with information have I found in the past with regard to filters. I personally think purolator make some of the better spin on filters out there.


" my opinion"
Basically it all boils down to individual preference when buying maint parts for your bike. Some people imagine that their oil is chock full of lots of bad little things that need filtering out. I fell that for the most part oil filters do their job keeping the oil decently clean of stuff and I want flow over filtering.



"not opinion"
The same thing works with any filter including the ones for yor ac unit at home place a 3M filtered filter in and you will get less flow. If you have bad allergies you may decide worse flow is better than the particles that irritate you.
I get a good filter that provides flow. I like to be cool on summer and warm in winter. I digress.


"my saying"
As I always say. It's your bike, your wallet and your decision. I feel comfortable with mine. I share my experience. Some people like that Information, some people don't.

Filter discussions are lively conversations. Not as lively as OIL or Tires. But they are lively. My guess is because most home mechanics can do an oil change. The livelyness of the conversations goes down when you start talking about fork oil fluid. There is another subject people know little about ...funny. Like you I like to share my information in the hopes that it may be helpful to another VFRW member or LURKER for that matter.



The Bypass Valve

First you need to understand why the bypass valve is there. Under *ideal* conditions, the bypass valve will *never* open. Because, when it opens, the oil *by passes* the filter and goes on through to the motor, obviously unfiltered. It is a safety valve. However, in *real* operation, it opens often.

One example is when you start the motor when cold. The oil is thick and does not pass easily through the filtration medium, thus building up to a high pressure drop. So, the bypass valve opens to prevent oil-starvation of the motor. How long it stays open is dependent on how cold the oil is and how long it takes to get near operating temperature. When the pressure drop across the filtration medium drops below the bypass valve setting, then the bypass closes. Blipping the throttle while warming up is a good way to get the valve to open and send unfiltered oil to the motor. A steady warm-up rpm is probably a lot better.
Another example can occur when the motor is fully warmed. At idle, the oil pressure is about 15 to 20 psi, and the pressure drop across the filter is about 1 or 2 psi. You take off towards the redline, and quickly build oil pressure to the 70 to 80 psi range. During that full-throttle acceleration the pressure drop across the filter will exceed the bypass setting, and send unfiltered oil to the motor, until the pressure across the filter has time to equalize. During a drag race, shifting through the gears, the bypass will open several times.
A third example, which you should never experience with frequent oil and filter changes, is when a filter becomes clogged. A spin-on filter can commonly hold 10 to 20 grams of trash before it becomes fully clogged. The bypass valve opening is the only way to keep the motor from becoming oil-starved if the filter becomes clogged.

 

I hate getting caught up in these damn treads.

 

I think your post just about confirms what a member here says about everyone having an opinion when it comes to oil filters. 99% of reports I have read state that Purolator Pure One is a great filter. You say otherwise.

You state stick to OEM Honda filters if you have the money. I can tell you that they are Frams, and according to you Fram is rubbish. Seeing as I have never heard a report of a Honda Civic or VFR (which I both own) having their oil filters disintegrate because they are Frams and crap, I don't think I'll be too concerned using Walmart Frams at $6.50 each.